Taking Sides: "Since U Been Gone" vs. "Maps"

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just because the guitar sounds are so similar. Karen O sounds more heartfelt, i guess, but Kelly Clarkson is a better singer, and thousands of times better looking. i choose "maps" by a hair.

― JD from CDepot, Saturday, 12 March 2005 19:38 (twenty years ago)

SINCE U BEEN GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Saturday, 12 March 2005 19:44 (twenty years ago)

Karen O sounds more heartfelt, i guess, but Kelly Clarkson is a better singer,
Thing is, I've seen SUBG performed on SNL and "Maps" on various programs, and both singers sound pretty shit live, at least on those tunes.

and thousands of times better looking
I wouldn't kick either of them out of bed...

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Saturday, 12 March 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

Prince "When U Were Mine"
Cars "Since You're Gone"

― The Argunaut (sexyDancer), Saturday, 12 March 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

Ada's cover of "Maps"?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 12 March 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

I'm gonna give it to "Since U Been Gone" in a photo finish cuz Fever To Tell probably* beats Breakaway by a country mile

*the title track is blase and the album would have to be godly otherwise to compare to FTT in my regard

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 12 March 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

Should I point out that "Maps" has...uh...more style?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 12 March 2005 20:46 (twenty years ago)

"Maps" is the best song of the century so far. "Since U Been" gone is good, but a trifle.

― John Cocktolstoy, Saturday, 12 March 2005 20:47 (twenty years ago)

"omg that Kelly Clarkson song sounds like Maps" is the new "omg Timbaland sounds like drum'n'bass"

― Al (sitcom), Saturday, 12 March 2005 20:57 (twenty years ago)

"Maps" is the best song of the century so far.
pfft.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:14 (twenty years ago)

http://www.musicexpress.com/covers/382921.jpg

― gygax! (gygax!), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:18 (twenty years ago)

to explain my take: both are emotional powerhouses but I'll give it to the one that isn't a power ballad

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

an even tougher call for me would be "Since U Been Gone" vs. "Y Control," where I might give to the YYYs because of, to use Tim's terminology, "style."

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:20 (twenty years ago)

It pleases me that no one's tried to shoot me down with a "THAT'S A SUBJECTIVE STATEMENT & YOU CORNY INDIE FUCKS THINK YOU OWN STYLE" reply to that.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:35 (twenty years ago)

I'd love to see Nick Zimmer bludgeon Kelly Clarkson with his guitar.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:36 (twenty years ago)

it was kind of tempting, tim

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)

Is this a joke?

"Maps"

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:39 (twenty years ago)

It must be a joke.

"Since U Been Gone"

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:43 (twenty years ago)

pfft.

really.

― John Cocktolstoy, Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:46 (twenty years ago)

yes.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:54 (twenty years ago)

The best song of the century so far is quite obviously Lil' Jon "Get Low".

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:57 (twenty years ago)

aaron otm

― j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:58 (twenty years ago)

I'll third that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)

I still vote for Usher's "Burn" (though "Get Low" certainly makes my top 30 - as does "Y Control"!)

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:02 (twenty years ago)

and "Since U Been Gone"! Everyone wins.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:02 (twenty years ago)

crunk will be forgotten in 2006. "maps" will live forever.

did I say my penis is very large?

― John Cocktolstoy, Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:20 (twenty years ago)

baps will live forever!!!

― j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:21 (twenty years ago)

http://images.allposters.com/images/153/857561.jpg

― Al (sitcom), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:24 (twenty years ago)

My god that is the WORST tagline for a movie.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:24 (twenty years ago)

haha - this beverly hills cop is gonna die hard!

― j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:27 (twenty years ago)

the chorus of the clarkson song is a little too strident. maps would be bad if it were a few seconds longer. they are both pretty good.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:28 (twenty years ago)

strident?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:39 (twenty years ago)

The best song of the century so far is quite obviously Lil' Jon "Get Low".

I may actually agree with this, but can I toss up "Bouncin' Back" by Mystikal as another contender?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

The best song of the century so far is quite obviously Lil' Jon "Get Low".

oh ffs

― John Cocktolstoy, Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

crunk will be forgotten in 2006.

That's even dumber than saying "Maps" is the best song of the century so far.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Saturday, 12 March 2005 22:55 (twenty years ago)

what's crunk again? I forget.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 12 March 2005 23:03 (twenty years ago)

I think it was that track that went something like, duh duh Duhhhhh Duh HEY! duh duh duh duh... duh duh DUUUUUH duh HEY! Shit I totally know this one.

― miccio (miccio), Saturday, 12 March 2005 23:04 (twenty years ago)

It goes without saying that Lil' Jon is already deeply intrenched in pop culture in such a way that the Yeah Yeah Yeahs aren't likely to ever be.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Saturday, 12 March 2005 23:10 (twenty years ago)

this is the stupidest values fite ever. go back to the slightly less stupid American Idol vs. indie fite.

― Al (sitcom), Saturday, 12 March 2005 23:13 (twenty years ago)

One of the reasons I like "Since U Been Gone" so much is that it's the first American Idol related single to not absolutely scream "American Idol" i.e. totally out of touch with what sounds good today, obsessively trying to duplicate 1992 Whitney/Mariah type hits, etc.

vs. indie? Well, I don't think the "it's better/more authentic cuz it's indie" thing has washed with me since about 1997 or so. Besides "Fever to Tell" is on Interscope. So they had a couple eps on Touch and Go, so what.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Saturday, 12 March 2005 23:38 (twenty years ago)

thank you for missing the point. MISS INDEPENDENT PWNZ.

― Al (sitcom), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:00 (twenty years ago)

I don't remember anything about that song, other than that it was "sassy".

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:02 (twenty years ago)

I'm not going to argue over who's the bigger Kelly Clarkson fan, I really don't have any interest in her apart from this single.

Am I the only one who likes "Date With The Night" better than "Maps" or "Y Control"? It's what I always wanted the Blues Explosion to sound like.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:07 (twenty years ago)

I love both these songs.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:08 (twenty years ago)

haha sorry i kinda brought "Miss Indepent" up out of nowhere, that isn't really relevent to anything else I was saying.

― Al (sitcom), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:08 (twenty years ago)

"Miss Independent" isn't as good as "Left Outside Alone".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:09 (twenty years ago)

I might as well finally take care of this:

*listens to both*

"Since U Been Gone" = beats the fuck out of Interpol's crap, but I'm more amused by the fact it's just a soft-loud-soft song. You know, Pixies, etc. Fun, though.

"Maps" = exactly what I expected it would be. And I was right, I like Ada's cover better. She sounds so lazy! Best song of this century MY ASS. Guitar work as obviously indebted to its forebears as the Kelly arrangement is to its.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:21 (twenty years ago)

("She" meaning Karen O. Fucking YAWN.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:23 (twenty years ago)

That's exactly why I prefer "Date With The Night", it's pretty much the only song on the record where she has a fire under ass AND I actually like the lyrics and music.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:26 (twenty years ago)

i got a date with the night
burnin down my finger
gonna catch the kids dry
gonna walk on water
buying out the fight
we're sweatin in the winter
gonna catch ya squeeze tight
chow chow chow chow chow chow chow chow chow chow

KICK ASS

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 00:28 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 23 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

1. I don't even really like the Minutemen that much, honestly. Here and there, you know. I love YMG, however I don't think either of these bands would make my top ten favorites even, but as far as a "minimalist aesthetic" I don't think YYYs pull it off as well as either of them, but I already said that. Interestingly enough, you brought up both the Minutemen and the Young Marble Giants in comparison, not me. You say you wouldn't criticize them for writing a "2/3 done" song and then admit that the YYYs are a lesser band, so I'm not sure there's an argument there.

2. I like "Maps" too, but I already said that. The "2/3 done" (which I'm only using as a term because Elisabeth said it and you picked it up) criticism stems from the fact that some people feel the song is a bit half assed, and not everyone likes that. I would rephrase my statement that "I'll take a finished pop song over 2/3 done one any time." to say that I'll take a well done "2/3 done" sounding song over a poorly done finished sounding song, but I'd still take a well done finished sounding song (Since U Been Gone) over a well done "2/3 done" sounding song (Maps), as I don't find that minimalist aesthetic inherently more valuable or interesting.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:00 (twenty years ago)

maps: the song has a very brief melody which it repeats and repeats and repeats with variations in the arrangement (the guitars mostly IIRC). so it that sense it's underdone. but (contra geir) melody isn't all. i think the song works pretty well, although the variations aren't inventive enough that the song would really work if it were any longer than it is.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:23 (twenty years ago)

OTM

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:28 (twenty years ago)

when i said the chorus of the clarkson song was too strident, i just mean i think it goes full-throttle a little too quickly, making the whole soft/loud dynamic a little too cartoonish for me. but i think it's a pretty cool song, and it's just sort of fun to hear a pop single by an american idol winner that so obviously cops that strokes guitar sound and weds it to a more conventional melody and a more diva-esque vocal.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:33 (twenty years ago)

incidentally can i find that song ("Maps") streamed anywhere on the web? i usually turn to wfmu to find some random song i want to hear (because i have a modem and it takes forever to download mp3s) but i can't find "maps" among the wfmu playlists. i feel like hearing it...now.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:34 (twenty years ago)

but I'd still take a well done finished sounding song (Since U Been Gone) over a well done "2/3 done" sounding song (Maps), as I don't find that minimalist aesthetic inherently more valuable or interesting.

this sounds kind of dogmatic, aaron. i mean, we're comparing two songs, not two aesthetic positions.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:35 (twenty years ago)

i know this was several dozen posts ago, but that Ted Leo thing is awesome, he never fails to amaze me.

that and, Kelly Clarkson wins, she is so fucking hot.

― JD from CDepot, Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:35 (twenty years ago)

i find clarkson's voice-persona (that whole snidey whispery thing she does on the verses, again sort of a strokes [etc] cop) on the record a shade unconvincing, but still way more convincing than i would have expected from her. so i still find it kind of exhilirating...as much for what it's trying to do as for what it achieves.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:37 (twenty years ago)

this sounds kind of dogmatic, aaron. i mean, we're comparing two songs, not two aesthetic positions.

Out of context maybe, but as Tim was turning Elisabeth's argument into a question of aesthetics....

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:45 (twenty years ago)

this will sound very chuckeddyish, but i think the clarkson song has the better lyrics.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:53 (twenty years ago)

"You say you wouldn't criticize them for writing a "2/3 done" song and then admit that the YYYs are a lesser band, so I'm not sure there's an argument there."

The argument is that "Maps" is as well-written a song as many Minutemen or Young Marble Giants songs.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:55 (twenty years ago)

heresy coming up: i don't think it completely "get" the YMG, and believe me, i've tried.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 07:56 (twenty years ago)

this will sound very chuckeddyish, but i think the clarkson song has the better lyrics.

Me too! I also like the sentiment better "Screw it, I'm better off without you" vs "Boo hoo, I need you don't leave me"

The argument is that "Maps" is as well-written a song as many Minutemen or Young Marble Giants songs.
Fair enough, if it's down to the one song. I still don't see what that proves in the grand scheme of things. It's certainly not as well written as their best material.

don't think it completely "get" the YMG, and believe me, i've tried.
Um...
4am. sleepless night. maybe you were drunk earlier but it's wearing off. you're laying in bed, alone. try it then, maybe.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:04 (twenty years ago)

"but I'd still take a well done finished sounding song over a well done "2/3 done" sounding song"

Also, Aaron, isn't this kind of absolute? Can a given "well done '2/3 done' sounding song" not be better than a given "well done finished sounding song?"

And isn't this comparable to someone in the 19th century saying that they'd take a classical painting over an impressionist painting because the classical painting is "finished?"

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:13 (twenty years ago)

"I still don't see what that proves in the grand scheme of things."

Making a point about topics on thread =/ making a point about "the grand scheme of things"

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:17 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I'm saying that as far as the pop/rock single goes, I personally would rather hear a song with real verses and a bridge and all that stuff, sue me.

There are some rare exceptions.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:19 (twenty years ago)

that's something of a tautology, aaron

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:20 (twenty years ago)

Aw, those verses are fine (as I argued upthread). They're "real." What's wrong with them -- too short? Not enough notes?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:21 (twenty years ago)

i just think it's neat to have a song that's so fundamentally repetitive (in an unusual way) on the charts (er, if "maps" made it onto any charts)

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:23 (twenty years ago)

so short answer: maps

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:25 (twenty years ago)

Alright fine. I think Maps fucking sucks, I think Karen O sucks and I think she can't sing worth a damn and her lyrics are terrible, worse than some generic pop lyrics written for an American Idol winner. Is that easier for you to accept? ;-)

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:30 (twenty years ago)

Seriously though:

Can a given "well done '2/3 done' sounding song" not be better than a given "well done finished sounding song?"

I'll grant you this and the only other conclusion I can come to is that I honestly don't find "Maps" to be as well written as "Since U Been Gone".

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 08:40 (twenty years ago)

i like the '2/3 done sounding' argument, because i think if taken as readability, clarkson's song has that two-thirds more. where karen sounds what you'd expect and what you will always expect from "maps," "since u been gone" sounds like it can change each time, similar to tim's quote about impressionistic painting. i think "maps" is arresting because it sounds like it's on the edge of stopping at any moment, bloated from both sincerity and irony. but, an american idol takes the pixies soft-loud dynamic? what the hell are you supposed to say about that in any bleary-eyed indie mythology? i mean, nirvana was keeping it real back in the day, but now...we have a texan girl belting it out mariah-style to interpol.

― natedey, Sunday, 13 March 2005 09:49 (twenty years ago)

not to make this into a pop-tastic authenticity debate, but karen's vocals on "maps" always remind me of arnie trying to smile in terminator 2 and i know she's seen it. but does it make it worse?

― natedey, Sunday, 13 March 2005 10:03 (twenty years ago)

what is the missing 1/3?

really, this argument perplexes me.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 10:05 (twenty years ago)

PIANO CODA!!!

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 13 March 2005 15:21 (twenty years ago)

what is the missing 1/3?

sorry all, i think i was the one to bring up the "unfinished" business but it didn't think some would take it so literally... That said - well, a better verse, a middle eight, a pre-chorus, whatever, something that would break the song out of that endlessly spiraling "they don't love you like i love you" lick.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Sunday, 13 March 2005 15:29 (twenty years ago)

*i* didn't think, etc.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Sunday, 13 March 2005 15:30 (twenty years ago)

PIANO CODA

Followed by a three-minute-and-a-half jam by the rest of the Dominoes.

The song didn't feel complete or not, it just wasn't all that. I was surprised how uninvolving That Guitar Break was.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 13 March 2005 15:30 (twenty years ago)

someone plz create remix of maps with 'everybody needs somebody' piano coda from november rain thx

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 13 March 2005 15:31 (twenty years ago)

Axl's verses on the main part of that song over an instrumental of Maps plz.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 13 March 2005 15:39 (twenty years ago)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/pic200/drp200/p258/p25860a2u80.jpg
omg teh hottness

So who are Lukasz "Doctor Luke" Gottwald and Martin Sandberg anyway? Have they written anything besides SUBG or is this their first big song? AMG is not helping much.

― Don't Ever Antagonize The Horny (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 17:34 (twenty years ago)

This thread proves the need for rockist philosophy.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Sunday, 13 March 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

If you like "Miss Independent," you like BAD MUSIC.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 13 March 2005 19:40 (twenty years ago)

I stand by what I said about not being able to remember a goddamn thing about that song, and I don't think hearing it again is a good idea either.

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 19:42 (twenty years ago)

This thread proves the need for rockist philosophy

Ok then, the YYYs suck because they didn't make a good album. They made 3 singles and a bunch of tossed off filler, some of it kind of enjoyable but filler nonetheless. How's that?

Under this ethos Kelly Clarkson sucks more, obviously, but I don't subscribe to this ethos, obviously.

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)

that endlessly spiraling "they don't love you like i love you" lick.

but this is the very substance of the song, its repetitiveness as a kind of musical correlative for the hopeless obsessiveness of the "story" the singer is relating (or rather the feeling). i agree that it couldn't be extended much longer.

if you don't like the song, of course that's up to you, but it sort of reminds me of people who would have spielberg cut out the last 30-odd minutes of "a.i."--which of course would have made it a completely different movie with a completely different thrust and emotional affect.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

i'm dismayed by how many musical arguments on ilm (and er elsewhere) are based (whether they acknowledge it or not) on dogmatic "best practice" ideas.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

also, "maps" has tom-toms! everyone likes tom-toms!

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, it sucks when people have personal preferences.
x-post

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:07 (twenty years ago)

that's EXACTLY what i meant, aaron. down with personal preference.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:09 (twenty years ago)

first will beat terrorism. then we'll be personal preference.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:11 (twenty years ago)

But I don't see how you can be dismayed by someone saying "I tend to enjoy songs that do this, with some exceptions."? Why is that wrong?

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:12 (twenty years ago)

beat personal preference. Terrorism will be easier.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:13 (twenty years ago)

Isn't the entire point of ILM and dogmatism? Asserting your opinions, even arrogantly at times? You do it constantly, amateurist. Everyone here does.

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:15 (twenty years ago)

ILM ~~and~~ dogmatism

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:16 (twenty years ago)

dog·ma·tism n. Arrogant, stubborn assertion of opinion or belief.

Criticism n. 1: disapproval expressed by pointing out faults or shortcomings.

How are these mutually exclusive in any way?

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Sunday, 13 March 2005 21:22 (twenty years ago)

one month passes...

I love both these songs.

― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 23 April 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

I like both songs, but I kinda love "Since U Been Gone." "Maps" is pretty but has never been that exciting to me; I've always thought it was kind of stupid that the slowest, non-rockingest song on the album had to be the single. I mean, Miccio OTM about "Y Control" making it a tougher contest, although I'd still go with Kelly, I think, just because I really think that "Since U Been Gone" is a perfect example of pop song structure, and I just find that so satisfying.

― jaymc (jaymc), Sunday, 24 April 2005 05:01 (twenty years ago)

http://www.internetweekly.org/images/pickles_o.jpg

laura bush & karen o...IF THEY MATED!

and since this has also devolved into who's hotter Kelly vs. Karen...my vote goes to PJ Harvey.

― mono.mono (mono.mono), Sunday, 24 April 2005 05:50 (twenty years ago)

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