Jam Bands vs. Regular Bands (PSA: careful, it could happen to you!)

Here's how it happened to me:

I listen to mainly very long songs with enough layers and changes to get lost in. This "long-song" thing of mine probably first began with Metallica who, in 8th grade, seemed to make the longest, most complicated and interesting music and was the first music to which I just sat on my bed and stared at the wall for hours. Then, the wall got boring so I bought some metal magazines and ripped out pictures of Metallica to stare at.

I prefer mellower stuff these days, whether dj/electronic stuff, proggish, hippy or neo-hippy jam bands, jazz and blues, but I still love doom and gloom heavy stuff like death metal and stoner/acid rock as long as the songs are fairly long and kept interesting.

I can only listen to short songs in small doses these days. It feels like "short attention span theatre" best suited for hyperactive teenagers getting wasted.

I have become the EXACT OPPOSITE of most people who are bored senseless by long songs and especially those by hippy bands.

5th grade: metal
7th greade: punk
8th grade: punk, speed metal, hardcore
9th grade: "college rock"
10th grade: "college rock" gets dubbed "alternative"
(beginning to open up to less macho music)

*a string of grunge and alternative bands during the next 2-3 years*

11th grade: heard Phish's "Junta" for the first time and forced myself to listen to the whole thing because it was mildly interesting and were they on drugs? I coudln't tell, but didn't really care. And I REALLY cared about drugs at that point -- any music made to get stoned got the stamp of approval from me. I thought Phish's little demo was at least well-done for grandma music, but it sounded to me like geeky Spyro Gyra losers that would go nowhere and had no plans on going anywhere.

Also heard Grateful Dead for the first time around then. This seemed less interesting to me than Phish for some reason. Very old and boring.

I became fixated on The Stooges, Mudhoney and Sonic Youth until college. I branded my brain with the uncomprimising toughguy don't-care punk artist attitude and thought this was my music that represented me. Yeah, I was cool (not).

------ College -----

Freshman college: I began to notice Phish shirts on lots of happy-go-lucky acidhead frat boys and our drug dealer was a big fat Phish fan who also wore the t-shirt. He looked happy. They all looked happy. "What is so great about Phish?" I wondered.

Though I wanted nothing to do with patchoulli or hippies, I began to experiment with bands like Frank Zappa, Phish, Pere Ubu and Grateful Dead. I found it was enjoyable and kept my attention but at the same time, was not very rockin' and it remained a fairly private interest.I did not blare it out the window while I played hacky sack, for instance. I did not sport a Phish t-shirt or ever talk about Phish unless someone asked me in which case I would say, "They're okay, they're really good musicians, but it's not, you know..." it would be a half-assed defense of a band I did not want to be associated with.

Throughout the 90s, here and there I slowly collected hippy jam bands just to check it out, but mainly got deeper into the world of "ALTERNATIVE" and "INDIE" rock, which after a time becomes quite boring.

For a couple years, I lost all interest in music but occasionally pulled out stuff that used to rock my socks off only to find that it's too noisy to hang out with friends and not interesting enough to occupy my time with over other options like reading, TV, or going out. I lost all desire to watch bands play as the focal point of a happening night out.

I sold a bunch of twee, alternative and indie records for almost nothing because everyone truly found them worthless, I guess. So long, Lunchbox! See you later, Death Cab For Cutie! Bye bye, Mudhoney and the rest of you Sub Pop rejects!

-----

FURTHUR appears. LIVE INTERNET MUSIC ARCHIVE appears. I download 150 cd's worth of shows. Forget about regular music anymore.

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/03/16/4237e93f28fe2

this is coming from a guy who likes (most) jam bands. i've got a shoebox full of phish, which i haven't touched in prob 5 months, but still...

...currently, my favorite live acts(the disco biscuits, brothers past) lean more toward incorporating the dj/electronic sound, which dovetails nicely with a lot of things popular here on ILM like JLC-remixes or vitalic...

...& 150 cds of live shows really isn't much, considering most individual shows take 3 discs and bands like moe or sci have like 500 or something shows each on the LMA. not to mention the gd of course.

i think i had a point when i started this but fuck all if i know what it was.

You like Phish but think Can are untalented? Boy, you are disturbed.

Which Can song shows off their talent? Does their talent mainly lie in musical mood or do you believe they are great musicians?

wait, so what jam bands do you like now? or, just any "long" songs? no offense, but that sounds dumb. maybe you could explain it better.

I did explain it better. (First post, first sentence especially and the follow-up longer post, fourth paragrath especially.)

So far, what I've been able to discover that I really like are: Phish, Grateful Dead, Reconstruction, Legion of Mary, Jerry Garcia Band, Garcia and Merle Saunders, Garcia and Grisman, Grisman Quintet, Boston Horns, Godstreet Wine, Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey, Mofro, Umphrey's McGee, String Cheese Incident, Jazz Mandolin Project, Little Feat, Greg Allman Band, Allman Brothers, Warren Haynes, Gov't Mule, George Clinton/Funkadelic, Bela Fleck, Fiji Mariners, Aquarium Rescue Unit and stuff that is not normally under the jam band banner but are often available as free live shows: Buckethead, Praxis, Mogwai, Bernie Worrell, Sun Ra, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Material, Thanatopsis,
Shin Terai, DJ Logic, DJ Shadow, Modest Mouse, Wilco, It's a Beautiful Day, Boards of Canada, DJ Qbert w/Buckethead, DJ Spooky, Kyuss, Bill Laswell, Jah Wobble and any blues, jazz, dub or electronica I can get my hands on.

...& 150 cds of live shows really isn't much, considering most individual shows take 3 discs and bands like moe or sci have like 500 or something shows each on the LMA. not to mention the gd of course

I was not out to impress with that number. It is merely the number I have at this point, having gone through 3 50-pack spindles of CDRs.

Couple other things:

1.) Most music (true, not all) is blues based
2.) "Noodling" seems to refer to guitar solos especially, and while that certainly applies in many cases, most jam bands these days are an all over orchestrated affair, not merely filling in holes with an extended guitar solo.

Like Jimmy Tango said above, most of my favorite stuff incorporates the dj/electronic sound as well. That and some of the purest, funkiest jazz on the planet, RECONSTRUCTION!!

Isn't this redundant, anyway?

Both. It doesn't require less talent to engage in slowly unfolding rhythmic repetition than it does to play a guitar solo. I don't think anyone would say that James Brown played with poor musicians.

You may want to check out Can's Peel Sessions disc, "Up The Bakerloo Line With Anne" in particular. And live, they were very much a jam band.

Why the comparison to a GUITAR SOLO? This is your impression regarding jam bands, obviously. Besides, the comparison makes no sense. It does require less talent, actually, in my experience. This is a comparison between artistic talent, which is subjective, and technical talent, which is objective. Jam bands often engage in both slowly unfolding rhythmic repetition and guitar solos.

I don't think anyone would say that James Brown played with poor musicians.

No, he had some of the best musicians on the planet back then. Based on what I've heard of Can, that is a poor comparison. I like Hawkwind, so having buttloads of technical musical prowess is not my only concern. I just found Can boring, but I am willing to give them another chance.

You may want to check out Can's Peel Sessions disc, "Up The Bakerloo Line With Anne" in particular. And live, they were very much a jam band.

Alright, I'll check it out!

Many people believe that virtuosity = improvisatory/soloing ability. I don't. Does it really require less talent to play the drums/bass in "Sex Machine" than it does to play a solo (on any instrument)?

That's a pretty big claim. I remember what sounded like garbage cans being banged and birdies chirping, mostly. I will definitely have to give another listen, but the one I am familar with is Future Days.

i didn't mean for my post to come off snarky. check out some tdb shows on the archive(if you haven't). just a tip though, it's really not worth the trouble to make the jamband argument here...not that that's necessarily what you're doing(though the thread title sorta suggests it)...search the archives and you'll see what i mean.

Sara,
Again with the "noodling." I tell ya, I'm real sick of that term. Buddy Guy and Miles Davis were noodlers, I guess. Anyway, yes I know what you mean. I remember first listening to Phish 10 years ago and the incredible amount of patience it took. If it's not your thing, it's just not, but be careful is all I'm saying! You don't want to end up like me. Although, I'm perfectly happy about it. I just can't wear band t-shirts anymore. :)

There you have two paragraphs that end with anymore. :)

And now a third.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(ahem)

anyway, 11012, yes, many people miss lots of things about jam bands (Phish offer at least small doses of great pleasure if you'll get over yourself first; the Dead and Grisman are great American music), but many jam band fans, and your list above makes clear that you're included herein, are missing a lot of what many people get. generally speaking, while non-fans fail to appreciate the benefits of risk-taking (or have sufficiently attuned ears that they only appreciate it on a level higher, if not much higher, than that most or all jam bands attain) or are excessively intolerant of eclecticism, many fans fail to appreciate the benefits of structure and content.

So... as a jam band fan, I'm missing a lot of what many people get, which is structure and content? I don't agree with that at all.

Regular bands don't need to be heard live and often they just plain suck live. Regular songs are carefully constructed artistic expressions. To me, this structure and content now seems a bit too simplistic, straightforward and sometimes too self-involved.

I don't actually think about the improvisational aspect of jam bands or "risk-taking" as you refer to it as much as everyone else does, I guess. To me, it sounds elaborately orchestrated and well-planned. I enjoy the sounds created within the framework of what must be well-structured improv. As far as content, what I particularly like about this sort of music is the honest, fun and free feeling which gives it a more straightforward appeal despite the elaborate improv aspects compared to me than regular music which is more musically straightforward but often feels cultivated and more contrived. I don't want to hear a deep song about your imaginary exaggerated bullshit world of youthful emotion or a 12 minute song about heroin or another love song or another hate song.

But, for great lyrics, look no further than Grateful Dead.

Also, you might want to see a dictionary about rockism.

I listen to mainly very long songs with enough layers and changes to get lost in. This "long-song" thing of mine probably first began with Metallica who, in 8th grade, seemed to make the longest, most complicated and interesting music

Which Can song shows off their talent? Does their talent mainly lie in musical mood or do you believe they are great musicians?

It does require less talent, actually, in my experience. This is a comparison between artistic talent, which is subjective, and technical talent, which is objective.

remember first listening to Phish 10 years ago and the incredible amount of patience it took.

I have heard Conehead Buddha, but had forgotten about them. I have seen about 50 shows by jam bands and have hundreds of hours of tape. I still listen on occasion to Phish or the Dead (who are certainly more than a jam band) or Grisman or Widespread. But I like songs that are about something other than feeling good or zoning out. I need to hear another love song or hate song the same way I haven't decided I need never read another book or see another movie ever again. (and I like music more than movies or novels) I appreciate the craft of songwriting (and of hiphop and other forms of wordplay) as much as or more than I appreciate the craft of a neo-classical song structure. While good jazz often loses the aesthetics or moods of jam-band eclecticism (though Mingus and Rollins and Murray can rock pretty hard), it is almost always more rewarding on the level of pure invention (and rhythm).

That's not to say that the technical aspects of Can are the interesing ones -- technique should be a means to an end, not an end in itself, and Can was perfectly willing to ignore technique if it got in the way of expression. The reason why I dislike a lot of jam band music is that the technique overwhelms everything else. The classic example of this is John Popper from Blues Traveller--his harmonica playing is technically impressive but even more impressively bereft of any interesting musical ideas. It's just long shapeless strings of major key sixteenth-note scales that go nowhere, but go there really fast. How is that even remotely interesting?

"[James Brown] had some of the best musicians on the planet back then. Based on what I've heard of Can, that is a poor comparison. I like Hawkwind, so having buttloads of technical musical prowess is not my only concern. I just found Can boring, but I am willing to give them another chance."

"So far, what I've been able to discover that I really like are: Phish, Grateful Dead, Reconstruction, Legion of Mary, Jerry Garcia Band, Garcia and Merle Saunders, Garcia and Grisman, Grisman Quintet, Boston Horns, Godstreet Wine, Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey, Mofro, Umphrey's McGee, String Cheese Incident, Jazz Mandolin Project, Little Feat, Greg Allman Band, Allman Brothers, Warren Haynes, Gov't Mule, George Clinton/Funkadelic, Bela Fleck, Fiji Mariners, Aquarium Rescue Unit and stuff that is not normally under the jam band banner but are often available as free live shows: Buckethead, Praxis, Mogwai, Bernie Worrell, Sun Ra, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Material, Thanatopsis,
Shin Terai, DJ Logic, DJ Shadow, Modest Mouse, Wilco, It's a Beautiful Day, Boards of Canada, DJ Qbert w/Buckethead, DJ Spooky, Kyuss, Bill Laswell, Jah Wobble and any blues, jazz, dub or electronica I can get my hands on."

That's not very rockist, is it? I don't like rap or hiphop, but I don't think it's a requirement to escape the "rockist" label to like every style of music, is it?

This is sort of the equilibrium point between the opposing sides of not-getting-it. Some of it really is just noodling, but some of it isn't. Many jam band fans won't admit the former, because they're too turned on by the sound/scene (or haven't heard enough good stuff from outside). Many non-fans won't admit the latter, because they're too turned off by the sound/scene (or haven't heard enough good stuff from inside).

I agree 100% (except for the bit about Can, which I'm not familiar with enough to agree with). If everyone says their rhythm section is so great, I suppose it must be. The last time I heard them was probably 9 years ago during which time I remember being into some Japanese band of girls that was supposedly influenced by Can. I found Can to be a big disappointment. Of course, now I remember Can but can't remember the Japanese band, so that's interesting.

But I especially agree about John Popper. I have really always hated Blues Traveller and especially his voice and the way he plays harmonica! Harmonica is a cool instrument but I hate the way he plays it.

and 11012, 'rockism' does not mean liking 'rock' (whatever that is) exclusively

On some level, rating music is always about "this is better than this because this is [whatever]" and, though music can't be scientifically scrutinized, at the objective level, the technical prowess of a musician could certainly be the deciding factor between two comparable artists. That does not mean Yngwie Malmsteen is better than drum machines.

Some of it really is just noodling, but some of it isn't.

Same story, innit?

john coltrane - coltrane's sound, live at the village vanguard

mccoy tyner - the real mccoy

joe henderson - inner urge

andrew hill - point of departure, passing ships

but before any of that, download 'grindin' by clipse and 'transmission' by joy division and tell me what u think

I love Joy Division. Never heard of Clipse.