Exotic Utah

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Coming off of the Uncut/Americana thread, I'm wondering just what the brit version of America is. I mean, there's the whole American mistique, or set even, about the UK, so how does it invert?

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 17 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Somehow, I think brits see A) melting pot exotic types B) lack of inhibitions C) empire's arrogance D) raw machine death.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 17 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You forgot 5) Cheesoritos and 6) Ice beer.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 17 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Archetypal American from Brit perspective: Loud Texan wearing shorts, giant camera hanging off expansive gut, asking stupid questions that display complete ignorance of world outside US.

On the flip side, the two most prevailing American stereotypes about Brits are bad teeth and bad food. Closely followed by repression, snobbery and ooh, what a lovely accent.

You could call it a mystique, I guess...

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 17 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I always pictured a negative view of stereotypical white America (pretty much like Ben lays down above), and an inflated view of stereotypical black America (I have a suspicioun that the UK love of American R&B/Soul/hip-hop is about more than just the music, but what do I know?)

― Mark, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(I don't think Sterling's talking as much about stereotypes as he is talking about mythologies, e.g. open roads and lonesome cowboys and other romanticized bits of "Americana.")

― Nitsuh, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

full of weirdoz like the osmonds. marry 98 women and leave deaf older brothers locked up in the house to run your fan club sicko bastards.

― XStatic Peace, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I could be wrong, but I think the open roads/lonesome cowboys thing died a death back in the mid-70s. These days, cowboy symbolizes presidents taking unilateral action across the globe.

Brits definitely romanticize black America. It's an interesting phenomenon. On the one hand, I think there's a genuine appreciation of the genius of black music in the 20th century; Brits are the archivists of Af-Am music (arguably the archivists of Americana in general) and without them performing that function, a lot of it might not have been heard so loud. From the blues to Detroit techno, Americans in general keep discovering Af-Am innovations after the Brits bounce them back to the homeland.

On the other hand, Brits often idealize African-American people/culture as some kind of super-liberated, polymorphous pleasure zone of funkiness. This can get a bit too close too primitivism for comfort. And they don't understand American racial politics at all; they tend to equate African-Americans with the British working class.

This stuff comes out most strongly in British music criticism...

― Ben Williams, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

when i think of Brit americana-fixation, I think of the southern gothic fixations of Nick Cave (he's not a Brit, I know, but kind of typifies the same dark southern thing sought by PJ Harvey, Tindersticks, Mekons, Sally Timms, etc.)

― fritz, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(I don't think Sterling's talking as much about stereotypes as he is talking about mythologies, e.g. open roads and lonesome cowboys and other romanticized bits of "Americana.")

Souljazz records seems interested in the mythology surrounding the "Saturday Night Fish Fry."

― Mark, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(i) guns - prevalency of, and
(ii) outlaws - the "getting lost in America" idea
would definitely be in there. Disagree completely about 'cultural melting pot' (ie that that's how Brits see it, it may well be true I dunno)

― Jeff W, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

To retract what I just said slightly, okay yes re NYC, but not re Utah/USA

― Jeff W, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This really sounds like more of a thread for ILE. But I have a story to relate in response to this: "On the other hand, Brits often idealize African-American people/culture as some kind of super-liberated, polymorphous pleasure zone of funkiness. This can get a bit too close too primitivism for comfort."

I don't want to make any Brits on ILx defensive about this, since I'm sure they know better, but a weird thing happened when I was in college. We took some British exchange students - very left-wing types, I should add - to the blues festival here, and they brought their cameras with them "to take pictures of black people." As a native Chicagoan who grew up around American blacks as my friends and schoolmates and co-workers, I was extremely offended by this and asked them to stop. By not taking pictures of white Americans as well, it was like they were perceiving blacks as non-Americans. I'm not talking about the musicians, or anyone else who might be doing something worth taking a picture, I'm talking people like your neighbors - just regular people. I asked why they were doing it, and he said, "because they're 'cool'". But what's worse is that some of my classmates didn't see the problem with it either and seemed to think it was a really liberal, multicultural thing to do. Ugh, it still sickens me to this day.

― Kerry, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

in fairness to the brits, white americans aren't immune to exoticizing african americans either. some brits might be more openly tactless about it, but it's a huge part of american culture too. there's that bit on "on the road" where kerouac rhapsodizes about the "negro" that's always seemed to me like a real indication of where the white american hipster's head was at that time regarding black people, and that mix of misunderstanding/mythos/worship/fear of the other continues today I think.

― fritz, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Glad you said that, Fritz. See "The Blues Brothers."

― Mark, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

further, it's more depressing that this persists in the States given the fact that, as Kerry says, Americans live and work side by side with African Americans while Brit misunderstanding could be partly explained by only having been exposed to pop culture representations of African Americans. I don't know if afro-Britons are exoticized in the UK in the same way or not.

― fritz, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Speaking of warped mythologies, let us consider the huge, unmediated, neon Confederate flag on the cover of Primal Scream's "Give Out But Don't Give Up."

I know, Bobby G's on drugs, but why must they choose such an embarassing signifier of Southern Fried funkay-ness?

― felicity, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Very good points so far -- America as escape from whiteness -- but two further Qs: A) Whatabout brit treatment of asians & hispanics in american and B) whaddabout the passing of the empire baton -- i.e. how much of this is tied to America's superpower status?

― Sterling Clover, Saturday, 19 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Can I add an Australian perspective? I think that 'Black America' as other is even more prevalent in countries which never had the same immigration from the colonies post war as Britain did. Many Australians tend to conflate both the British and American 'non white experiences' into general perceptions of imported racial tensions (to which the flipside is an equally fictional "not too foreign, yet not monocultural" Australia). And Hispanics and Asians tend to be ignored because they aren't as conveniently exoticised (especially given Asian immigration post White Australia policy).

Culturally, the issue tends to be complicated by the fact that we get masses more Americana even compared to the Brits. And often Australian popular culture seems to involve subversion of American templates. Ultimately, while American culture might be progressive in form, I can't help feeling that both it (and previously British culture, though that was more conservative) have kept Australian identity (etc) callow, and progressively stripped back traditions which might have been seen as Australian (eg widespread early involvement of unions). I keep meaning to start a cultural nationalism (c/d) thread.

― charles, Sunday, 20 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Kerry - continental Europeans are the VERY worst. "I vould like to go to America and see der black people. I think it is shameful how vey are treated." This came from a German once. The exoticism will be cured eventually with experience (hopefully), but if you're going to tar a whole country with that particular brush then just make sure you're not German, OK? Jesus. I don't understand why the continent is seen as a haven of sophistication.

― dave q, Sunday, 20 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Dumbest german leftist chant ever: America -- Genocide Central!

― Sterling Clover, Sunday, 20 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

eight years pass...

I am going to Moab Utah for a day. Camping in Dead Horse Point State Park, which is probably a little nutty considering the heat (but that didn't stop the campsites from filling up fast). Recommend the best sites, hikes, stuff in town, etc.

― Theodore "Thee Diddy" Roosevelt (Hurting 2), Friday, 6 August 2010 04:25 (fifteen years ago)

for just a day??

― hope this helps (Granny Dainger), Friday, 6 August 2010 18:17 (fifteen years ago)

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