Critics are the art of pretend hipfulness

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On Stylus today, in the review of Paatos, a prog rock band, the dude writes: "As a fan of that genre’s indulgences, I am pleasantly surprised to find the template still in use and not sounding ridiculous."

You are obviously a huge fan. It's nice that prog rock bands are getting reviewed again, but I would be more impressed by someone using that "genre's indulgences" cliche to describe a band influenced by The Beach Boys or The Velvet Underground instead of a band influenced by Van Der Graaf Generator or Genesis.

― Shady Grove, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 13:24 (twenty years ago)

yknow i sorta understand how/why people read pitchfork but stylus???

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

Here's why: http://www.stylusmagazine.com/review.php?ID=2855

― Huk-L, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:12 (twenty years ago)

there's a lot of great writing on stylus, especially the features.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

word

― Baaderonixxxorzh (Fabfunk), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:14 (twenty years ago)

Cheers Blount, love you too.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:14 (twenty years ago)

Stylus is great. I prefer it to Pitchfork. I'm not knocking the guy who wrote the review either except to point out how bizarre the habit of knocking pro rock as being outdated is, when the same partyline critical aesthetic that asserts it, would never knock The Beach Boys or The Velvet Underground as a "template still in use and not sounding ridiculous." Again, not calling this dude out, but just pointing out a manifestation of a larger pretend hipfulness you'll find in lots of reviews. It gets in the way, you know, of reviewing the music.

― Shady Grove, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

I will say that I'm glad mainstream review sites can review traditional prog (ie, that influenced by Genesis/Yes/King Crimson etc). Even when I write about prog at Pfork, it's usually from the avant end. Symphonic prog is way under-represented in the press, and there really is a bubbling underground scene, with plenty of fans.

I agree that using the old "indulgence" tag word is pretty lame (especially since that's the word most people who hate prog already use), but you have to start somewhere, right?

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:37 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I kind of agree -- if anything, the indulgences of Beach Boys and Velvet Underground are much more prevalent today, whereas Mars Volta is about the only really proggy band I can think of that's popular right now.

But then every time I hear Jon Anderson go "AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!" or Rick Wakeman takes a harpsichord break, I kind of have to *forgive* them for their sins even as I enjoy them, so I can see what the reviewer means, even if it's a cliche.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:38 (twenty years ago)

I'm sure I must have taken plenty of digs at The Beach Boys and The VU on Stylus, seeing as they're both rubbish, like.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:41 (twenty years ago)

I really like the Beach Boys. VU is ok, but they're better at being cool than making music.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

I think people confuse "pretend hipfulness" and "lazy writing", not deliberately lazy, but deadline approaching, reaching for front-of-brain words that fit without thinking them out, hence "indulgence" etc.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 14:52 (twenty years ago)

i'm confused. you think other people should say the same thing and use the same cliche when writing about other genres? and you are mad at this guy/gal cuz other people don't pick on the beach boys and v.u. enough? i'm probably missing something. and he/she wasn't even picking on them. he was giving them a compliment. wasn't he/she?

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 15:29 (twenty years ago)

plus, they say that they are a fan of the indulgences, not a fan of the genre. maybe they just like to hear long noodly keyboard solos every now and again. it's just a vague sentence. it could be used in any review of any album ever. plus, something sounding ridiculous isn't a bad thing to me, so they lose me there.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 15:37 (twenty years ago)

This is a reply to your first comments above. I'd say the dude delivered a compliment, but a stale, qualified compliment. Ideally there'd be really few cliches, right? I don't want anyone to pick on anyone; I'm just saying it's occurred to me over the years that in like a High Llamas or Of Montreal review, you don't read about how they're making use of a "template still in use and not sounding ridiculous." Why's that? Didn't The Beach Boys do their best work in the 60s? Didn't prog rock peak in the mid-70s? Those dates are quibblable, but I think you get the point--why is music based on music from the 60s fresher than music based on music from the 70s? If the answer is because it's "better," well, not necessarily. I'm just wondering if there's something else going on, like the answer is it's "cooler," which is why I brought up "pretend hipfulness" as a way of describing how the dude couched his liking of prog rock.

I think that makes sense. I'm wondering what's the big deal that people feel like they have to do that in the first place. It's just music.

― Shady Grove, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 15:41 (twenty years ago)

well, i'm a metal fan, so you don't need to tell me about dismissive reviews. and if it makes you feel any better, i have lambasted brian wilson and syd barrett graverobbers more than once in print.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 15:58 (twenty years ago)

plus, prog IS kinda hip now! it's hipper to say you are listening to Nektar or Happy The Man then it is to say you are listening to the beach boys these days.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 16:16 (twenty years ago)

if you are after positive art/ progressive rock reviews, check:

Ground and Sky
http://www.progreviews.com/

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

don't forget about my fave, martian:

http://www.gnosis2000.net/gnosisreviews.shtml

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 16:22 (twenty years ago)

as mentioned on my blog, last week scott

Top 100 Albums 2000-2004 @ Gnosis
http://djmartian.blogspot.com/2005_04_01_djmartian_archive.html#111283958931407203

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

http://www.progreviews.com/reviews/display.php?rev=mat-tcw

A matmos review.
Has Drew seen it?

― Rock Bastard, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

is hipfulness rockist?

(kidding -- sort of, because i've never heard that word before and don't know what it means.)

― marc h., Wednesday, 20 April 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

what word? "hipfulness" or "rockist"?

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

touche.

― marc h., Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:14 (twenty years ago)

(hipfulness, obv.)

― marc h., Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:15 (twenty years ago)

there's a bit of irony in decrying a cliche while giving a thread that title

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:23 (twenty years ago)

"quibblable"

― W i l l (common_person), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:25 (twenty years ago)

miccio how so?

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:26 (twenty years ago)

cuz its a cliche. i wish someone else would second-guess me for a change.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

miccio otm

"Critics are the art of pretend tktktk" almost as annoying an ILM tic as "get one tktk."

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

No offense to the original poster, but is the thread title even written in English?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:33 (twenty years ago)

ye gods when grammar police and defenders of the hack unite

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:34 (twenty years ago)

crikey

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

"NOIZE!!??!?!"

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:36 (twenty years ago)

James, love your new elpee.

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:37 (twenty years ago)

I stand by my original thread!

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

your original thread was hilarious, dude!

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:41 (twenty years ago)

cliche seems to me as overrated a sin as hypocrisy

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:41 (twenty years ago)

Every cliche has a silver lining, you know.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

i think some people may not realize that the title is a play on another thread entitled "critics are the art of pretend forgetfulness." which is a funny thread where chuck eddy and scott seward get pwned.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:45 (twenty years ago)

I agree with j.blount.

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:45 (twenty years ago)

I was referring to the concept of critics as "pretend hip" as cliche rather than the thread ref. Gear's critic-roasting on the noise board is pretty awesome

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:46 (twenty years ago)

"since for a reader to be blown away by the original phrase it must already be partly familiar to them, if they are to register the transformation; a point fatally misunderstood by every generation of the avant-garde, which is one reason they are stylistically interchangeable"

― cozen (Cozen), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:47 (twenty years ago)

"a funny thread where chuck eddy and scott seward get pwned"

Someone trying to be funny in pointing out someone saying something about not remembering exactly what was on an album they sold fifteen years ago =/ getting pwned.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

hey now, just a bit of fun

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

!NOIZE! dudes pwn themselves by existing

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:54 (twenty years ago)

pwning in the pwnyard

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:55 (twenty years ago)

they do! they pwn us all!

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:55 (twenty years ago)

Tim OTM. "I'm going to pretend it's weird when people don't remember off the top of their head every song title on every album they ever heard, as if I or any other moron here does" hardly = "awesome."

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:57 (twenty years ago)

mr. ellison, the definition of "pwnage" varies. why, just yesterday, a fellow on ile used "pwned" when i believe he meant "had sexual intercourse with." i am not to question this usage. the terminology is young and is thus still in flux.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:57 (twenty years ago)

i'm sorry, i have turned into gareth.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

wait'll you see my dick, i'm gonna pwn that pussy up

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

the critic forgetfulness thread is an all-inclusive, good-natured club. I expect to note my forgetfulness on a thread again in the future, and someone better damn well note the fact and file it away for posterity.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

I pwned my toothache today by taking some Ibuprofen.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:01 (twenty years ago)

remember that car I used to pwn? the new pwner was driving it, and it was pwned by an SUV at a red light.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

the velvet underground were totally prog and "indulgent", and their template is still in place and mostly not sounding ridiculous.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

i fucking pwned that track this morning but now i've got blisters on the heels of my feet and it would appear that in fact the track pwned me.

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:04 (twenty years ago)

a lot of the VU's first two albums sound ridiculous if taken at face value. Part of its appeal for me these days.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v142/Videlectrix/Fu%20Pie/pwned.png

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

we're on our way to living in an pnwership society

― W i l l (common_person), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:10 (twenty years ago)

(this thread ought to be titled ROCK CRITICS OF ILM REPRAZENT)

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:19 (twenty years ago)

the velvet underground were totally prog and "indulgent", and their template is still in place and mostly not sounding ridiculous.

-- Fritz Wollner (fritzwollner5...), April 20th, 2005.

Examples?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:22 (twenty years ago)

lady godiva's operation?

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:25 (twenty years ago)

No, I meant of the template still being in place and not sounding ridiculous.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

of montreal

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

well, it's obvious tim: fiddle player + punkrock attitude = Yellow Card!

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

Gear's critic-roasting on the noise board is pretty awesome

Which thread is this?

― darin (darin), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:32 (twenty years ago)

and charlie daniels, of course. he has always been pretty misanthropic and droney.

does "indulgent" mean long songs, long solos, or long songs with long solos?

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

thread-title search the word "forgetfulness" on the noise board

(x-post)

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:34 (twenty years ago)

It might have been misspelled, though. Can't remember.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

sorry, "forgetfullness" (evidently)

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

critics was also spelled "critcs"

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:37 (twenty years ago)

Found it! Thanks!

― darin (darin), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:39 (twenty years ago)

cougar made good latter-day fiddledronepunk. sometimes i sing rain on the scarecrow to the tune of run run run in lou's voice:

"Well there’s ninety-seven crosses planted in the courthouse yard
Ninety-seven families who lost ninety-seven farms
I think about my grandpa and my neighbors and my name
And some nights I feel like dyin’ like that scarecrow in the rain"

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

That thread is great, but Jesus, some of those noise board posts read like the ramblings of schizophrenic inhalant abusers.

― darin (darin), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:57 (twenty years ago)

Noize boreders are the art of pretend retardation.

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:59 (twenty years ago)

like the ramblings

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:12 (twenty years ago)

Eddy/Harvell mindmeld shockah!

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:20 (twenty years ago)

If the Noize board were a contestant on the UK version of The Apprentice, they'd be Paul.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:21 (twenty years ago)

when I first saw this thread, I thought it was "Critics are the art of pretend helpfulness".

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:53 (twenty years ago)

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