Uneven Waltzes

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This has always bothered me: when I covered conducting as part of music theory at school, I was always taught to count three regular beats. However, when you listen to 'professional' recordings of Strauss, Tchaikovsky etc. waltzes, the beat always sounds kind of off-centre: 12...3, 12...3 etc. I just heard another example on TV this evening and it's starting to bug me...

TIA

Jez

― Jez (Jez), Monday, 18 April 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

Um...

Did your music theory class cover "syncopation"?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 18 April 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

There's no real gap between beats. There's a sort of anticipation on the third beat, though, leading up to the downbeat in the next measure. Is this what you're referring to?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 18 April 2005 20:36 (twenty years ago)

Also, 1 & 3 are strong beats, 2 is a weak beat.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 18 April 2005 20:38 (twenty years ago)

1 is the strong beat. 3 isn't (usually).

― everything, Monday, 18 April 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

In a waltz, it often is.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 18 April 2005 21:07 (twenty years ago)

No no, Dan, it's not syncopation -- the three comes a little late in the Viennese waltz. There's a name for this which I'll now look up. It's what seperates a Viennese waltz from other types of waltzes.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 18 April 2005 21:08 (twenty years ago)

1 is the primary beat of the measure.
2 is the weakest beat of the measure.
3 is not as strong as 1 but is stronger than 2, leading into the next downbeat.

Notice that this coincides with waltz footwork, where you step on beats 1 and 3.

(xpost: I didn't know that about Viennese waltz! Cool!)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 18 April 2005 21:10 (twenty years ago)

There's no real gap between beats. There's a sort of anticipation on the third beat, though, leading up to the downbeat in the next measure. Is this what you're referring to?

Absolutely ... where is this referred to in the score? I'm fine with syncopation, but I've never seen it in 3/4 time other than in Jazz (usu where Dave Brubeck sticks a swing beat over the top). Coincidentally, I finished a piece using this technique today and had never made the connection. I promise this is not an act of self-publicity, ... I feel bloody stupid now:

The reason I posted was a couple of Strauss waltzes on University Challenge (I'm digging myself in to hole here...I'll get me coat)

Cheers

Jez

― Jez (Jez), Monday, 18 April 2005 21:10 (twenty years ago)

And actually, strictly speaking, the second beat is rushed BEFORE the third beat is delayed.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 18 April 2005 21:12 (twenty years ago)

...and some musicologists call this the "Viennese lilt".

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 18 April 2005 21:16 (twenty years ago)

Cheers! ... ditto The Viennese info.

― Jez (Jez), Monday, 18 April 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

I'm left with this pathetic vision of me at school drawing a repated triangle in the air with my ruler.

― Jez (Jez), Monday, 18 April 2005 21:20 (twenty years ago)

Coincidentally, I finished a piece using this technique today and had never made the connection. I promise this is not an act of self-publicity, ... I feel bloody stupid now:

I forgot to to post the link (if his still doesn't count as self-publicity):

Some music

― Jez (Jez), Monday, 18 April 2005 21:23 (twenty years ago)

If you picture a couple waltzing, it kind of makes sense to have that slight drag.

― Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 18 April 2005 23:23 (twenty years ago)

Aren't there plenty of other situations where, to get the feel right, some beats are rushed a little and/or some are delayed?

― Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

Aren't there plenty of other situations where, to get the feel right, some beats are rushed a little and/or some are delayed?

Agreed, but it seems like an unwritten rule that Viennese Waltzes run like this throughout the whole tune, with every second beat rushed (ie not for individual moments of expression).

― Jez (Jez), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 12:11 (twenty years ago)

In a Wiener Waltz (Johannn Strauss Jr.), the 2 is supposed to be a bit early and the 3 a bit late. Didn't know this applied to other waltzes of classical music though.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

Based on my reading of the thread so far, it doesn't.

― Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 12:18 (twenty years ago)

Tchaikovsky was Viennese?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 16:23 (twenty years ago)

I don't think he was. He wasn't Polish either, but he might have written a Polonaise now and again.

― Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 16:26 (twenty years ago)

Jeff Mills was German??? (If you know what I'm saying, Dan...)

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 16:26 (twenty years ago)

I know what you're saying, I'm just being an ass.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 19 April 2005 16:28 (twenty years ago)

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