Downright mediocre acts that have become "legends" after their death

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I am not speaking of people like Kurt Cobain and Jim Morrison. Sure, they may be overrated, and their deaths may have helped their reputation in retrospect. But, seriously speaking, they did play an important part in rock history no matter what you think about their music, and there's no denying that. Even before his death, Kurt Cobain was very much seen as a spokesman for a generation, and certainly an important figure.

What I am more interested in is how people such as Karen Carpenter and Eva Cassidy have become such major names after dying way too early. I mean, basically, they were both just the Celine Dions of their day. Sure, they may have been good singers, but so are Celine Dion and Mariah Carey too.

I still cannot understand to this day why these enjoy kind of a critical reappraisal, except it obviously must have something to do with the tragic fact that both died way too young.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:43 (twenty years ago)

tupac.

― my name is... (downtown81), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:47 (twenty years ago)

http://www.totallyposters.com/ProductImages/posters/34.jpg

― latebloomer: But when the monkey die, people gonna cry. (latebloomer), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)

Woah there. Heck, I never liked the Carpenters. But they were not mediocre.

Eva Cassidy? One 'poignant' song,and everyone has bought into the 'myth'. I saw some more of the 'pub gig' video, and I was 'enough. Hey, it's sad, but there are many people still alive, as talented, and playing that pub i'm sure.

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:52 (twenty years ago)

Tim Buckley

― darin (darin), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:52 (twenty years ago)

SACRED COW I HATE YOU HA HA

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:53 (twenty years ago)

Geir Hongro

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:53 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division.

*oooh*

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:54 (twenty years ago)

Geir's already a legend.

― Doobie Keebler (Charles McCain), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:54 (twenty years ago)

BRAINIAC GUY FUCK HIM HA HA HA
MUSIC SUCKS
HA

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:55 (twenty years ago)

what, the "x was a hero to most" thread wasn't enough? Sensational Sulk is right, all this boring sacred cow kicking is completely useless.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 25 April 2005 20:55 (twenty years ago)

I don't think Karen Carpenter is thought of in the same way as Morrison or Cobain. Death has done nothing to give her work an added layer of glamour, appreciation of the Carpenters is almost purely musical.

I certainly don't think The Doors or Nirvana have played any more "important" a part in Pop history. Their respective singers' deaths are treated with more gravitas by a certain kind of fan, but their contribution to the future won't be any bigger than the Carpenters.

Eva Cassidy's appeal on the other hand is more like Anne Geddes'.

― Failin Huxley (noodle vague), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:00 (twenty years ago)

whar is the cult of river phoenicks?

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:03 (twenty years ago)

Nirvana's contribution to theirfuture (that is, the second half of the 90s and first half of the 00s) has definitely been bigger than Carpenters' ever was.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

failin huxley otm about the carpenters.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:07 (twenty years ago)

and i was actually tempted to say joy division myself.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:08 (twenty years ago)

Tupac
Biggie

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:42 (twenty years ago)

That one out of TLC.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:44 (twenty years ago)

tigger
blu-tac

― Frogm@n Henry, Monday, 25 April 2005 21:47 (twenty years ago)

I don't think Karen Carpenter is thought of in the same way as Morrison or Cobain.

Yeah, I don't know many teenage boys that go through their "Carpenter phase" in High School. Although I'd like to meet the people that have.

I think that about every major artist that dies young gets is overrated to an extent. I don't know if their death makes me scrutinize the hype more or if there is a correlation between mediocre acts and dying young. If the latter is true then I've got that Jenkins guy from Third Eye Blind on suicide watch. He's not pulling any shit over my eyes.

― Cunga (Cunga), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:53 (twenty years ago)

johnny thunders

― my friend flicka (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:56 (twenty years ago)

Tiny Tim (ducks)

― Failin Huxley (noodle vague), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:58 (twenty years ago)

Blind Melon.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:58 (twenty years ago)

tiny was legendary before his death! he only died a few years ago.

― my friend flicka (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)

**I think that about every major artist that dies young gets is overrated to an extent.**

OTM. I remember my dad, a country music fan, laughing at some corny old TV commercial for a budget LP and saying "it's like The Late Great is part of Jim Reeves' name." It's a hallowed tradition.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 25 April 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)

Stevie Ray Vaughan.

― Ken L (Ken L), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:00 (twenty years ago)

Owen Hart

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)

xxXpost
the sad thing about Johnny Thunders was how he traded on the died-young legend while he was still alive.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)

Ted Demme

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)

Pete Doherty

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)

what's that? oh, right.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:02 (twenty years ago)

Guys who don't even like rap saying rappers are overrated, C/D?
(sorry ignore that, deja vu)

I'm with Al in ILM quality control, this thread sucks.

― Lethal Dizzle (djdee2005), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:02 (twenty years ago)

johnny ace

― my friend flicka (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:02 (twenty years ago)

J.F.K.

― Failin Huxley (noodle vague), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:02 (twenty years ago)

Chatterton

― Masked Gazza, Monday, 25 April 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

Jesus.

― Failin Huxley (noodle vague), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:05 (twenty years ago)

A salesman.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:06 (twenty years ago)

a clown

― my friend flicka (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:07 (twenty years ago)

xpost
He made his comeback, and then disappeared. WTF was up with that?

― Masked Gazza, Monday, 25 April 2005 22:07 (twenty years ago)

"always leave 'em wanting more."

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:09 (twenty years ago)

I'd say Dimebag, except for the legend bit.

― Failin Huxley (noodle vague), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:10 (twenty years ago)

A disco dancer

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:13 (twenty years ago)

i swear geir lives inside the rolling stone record guide

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

I forgot that Hutchence committed suicide until very recently.

I think it had something to do with a reccuring dream I had where he'd come to my desk in work and start singing 'never tear us apart' before buying a copy of a John Major biography (I worked in a bookshop + was semi-obsessed with who would ever buy that piece of crap) and he'd leave without paying.

After I stopped working there the dreams ended. Song still freaks me out though.

"don't ask me"

AHHHHHHH

― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

actually just thinking about that dream has me feeling freaked out.

― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

That Rolling Stone record guide is pretty horrible. If we're talking the '92 edition!

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:21 (twenty years ago)

He didn't commit suicide, it was just a wank that went horribly wrong.

― Failin Huxley (noodle vague), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:22 (twenty years ago)

Dom OTM -- Owen Hart owns this thread (even though he may belong on a different thread).

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:22 (twenty years ago)

Linking Owen Hart and threads seems cruel, somehow.

― Failin Huxley (noodle vague), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:23 (twenty years ago)

The saddest part about Owen Hart is he could have had a far greater recording career than even Hulk Hogan and The Wrestling Boot Band.

― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Monday, 25 April 2005 22:23 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 18 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Right, who else died that was rubbish?

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:00 (twenty years ago)

axl rose...

― Elvis is Dead, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:00 (twenty years ago)

Apart from one jokey one, there isn't a single ILM thread about Johnny Thunders. This obviously proves outright that he is not getting much play these days!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:13 (twenty years ago)

sid vicious

― John Cocktolstoy, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:14 (twenty years ago)

I second/third Jeff Buckley. In a parallel universe, he'd be an American Idol contestant.

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:25 (twenty years ago)

Somehow I can't picture Jeff Buckley frolicking around in those AI Ford commercials.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:28 (twenty years ago)

Apart from one jokey one, there isn't a single ILM thread about Johnny Thunders. This obviously proves outright that he is not getting much play these days!

ilm hates all new york punk!!

― my friend flicka (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:29 (twenty years ago)

jeff buckley was great! he just had bad lyrics.

and yeah he was pretty famous before he died. i saw him at an in-store in 1994 (just after grace came out) and even before the thing started there were hundreds of people lined up outside.

― my friend flicka (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:31 (twenty years ago)

what a bunch of punks

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:32 (twenty years ago)

thanks to this thread i just hit up slsk for an mp3 of "last goodbye" (i have the cd downstairs but i can't be arsed to get it out of storage).

― my friend flicka (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 00:33 (twenty years ago)

The Big Bopper. One minor hit single, and we still remember him decades later.

― mike a, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 01:03 (twenty years ago)

mike otm.

― Ken L (Ken L), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 01:29 (twenty years ago)

The Big who?

― Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 01:30 (twenty years ago)

Who thinks the Big Bopper was a "legend," though?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 01:32 (twenty years ago)

Hey, he also wrote "White Lightnin'"!

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 01:37 (twenty years ago)

And "Running Bear"!

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 01:37 (twenty years ago)

Tim OTM, tho.

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 01:37 (twenty years ago)

Karen's voice (which is considerably more studied & nuanced than Geir implies; neither Mariah nor Celine will ever have half Karen Carpenter's gift for expressive phrasings).

I was wondering where the hell that was coming from too. I only have one Carpenters singles comp but AFAICT KC sounds like virtually the opposite of a showy, melismatic, hyper-emotive diva. Also, have Celine Dion or Mariah Carey ever sang anything as bleak as "Goodbye to Love" or "Hurting Each Other"? (Maybe they have - I haven't listened a lot. It's a real question.)

― Sundar (sundar), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 01:42 (twenty years ago)

I am glad someone posted "Tupac" right away.

I'll defend Tupac another time, who I feel is unfairly lambasted and worshipped in different quarters, but the idea that he wasn't considered a "legend" until his death is kind of ridiculous i think, I mean the guy was hugely popular prior to that.

― Lethal Dizzle (djdee2005), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 02:36 (twenty years ago)

Tupac and Biggy??!? Jesus, just throw Buddy Holly in there while you're at it.

― billstevejim, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 02:50 (twenty years ago)

Biggie and Tupac. Mediocre as hell in retrospect.

― maria b (maria b), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 04:10 (twenty years ago)

Jeff Buckley - agreed, altho I don;t think this is the case with his dad

― Robin Goad (rgoad), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 10:28 (twenty years ago)

The respective cults of Nick Drake and Tim Buckley might be irritating (esp. the former) but in no way could either have them be described as "downright mediocre"!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 10:32 (twenty years ago)

John Lennon to some extent. His contribution to The Beatles was important and crucial, and in fact it was already considered so important and crucial before his death that his death didn't really mean anything to increase his status at all. Beatles simple were the biggest and most important thing in 20th century music, and most people knew that even before Lennon was shot.

However, John Lennon as a solo act has become way overrated after his death.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 10:37 (twenty years ago)

Well, the Big Bopper died in the plane crash with two actual legends, Buddy Holly and Richie Valens, both of whom were already hugely popular and would've been been recognized as legends had they lived (well, Holly would've). So maybe Mr. Chantilly Lace is a legend by association.

― mike a, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 12:53 (twenty years ago)

OTM about Nick Drake. Those three albums would have been recognized as important in life or death.

― mike a, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

john coltrane?

*ducks*

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

Richie Valens had only had two hits, so hard to tell whether he would have become a legend without the plane crash too. But he might.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

Jeff Buckley was not merely an awful lyricist; he was also an awful singer.

Okay, now I will be a total jerk:

The guy from Nasum who died in the tsunami.
I'd say the guy from the Bullys who died during 9-11 too (he was one of NYC's "bravest"), but I'm pretty sure almost everybody forgot about him already.

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

Courtney Love (pending)

― Brian Miller (Brian Miller), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 13:14 (twenty years ago)

John Cage?

*ducks*

― Pradaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 13:16 (twenty years ago)

BRAINIAC GUY FUCK HIM HA HA HA
MUSIC SUCKS
HA

Wrong. On both counts. Brainiac were ace. But became a legend? Where?

― Ben Dot (1977), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 13:45 (twenty years ago)

In fact, I'm looking forward to a posthumous legend on the level of maybe a Tommy Bolin. Not that he was downright mediocre, exactly -- more a case of enormously unfulfilled potential.

― brianiac (briania), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

you can argue all day about rap's best emcees but to say tupac and biggie were mediocre, shit, that makes fiddy look like a fuckin' genius. two men steered the course of rap history in the lates 90s and neither was mediocre.

― the rock n roll nigga (the rock n roll nigga), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:13 (twenty years ago)

What makes Fiddy look like a genius has yet to be determined.

― brianiac (briania), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:15 (twenty years ago)

the rock n roll nigga OTM on Biggie, at least. (He was actually slightly better than mediocre. If anybody doesn't believe me, they should listen to the five entertaining songs on his double CD.)

Also, I did hear a Braniac single that didn't sound entirely generic once.

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

>to say tupac and biggie were mediocre, shit, that makes fiddy look like a fuckin' genius.<

I am trying to understand this logic, though....Does it mean that 50 Cent is way better than Biggie and Tupac? (If they were mediocre, and he is a genius, that would most likely have to be the case, right?)

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:23 (twenty years ago)

I find Janis Joplin to be downright mediocre but others don't

― Pradaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:23 (twenty years ago)

I don't like Janis Joplin, personally, but I wouldn't call her mediocre. Her vocal talent was remarkably distinctive. I just didn't care for what she had to say, nor the caterwauling method with which she said it.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:25 (twenty years ago)

Yo Chuck, it's a bit soon to be tossin' Elliott Smith in this pile, no? Seems a bit premature.

Also, I'll never understand the hate for Jeff Buckley (well, OK, I kinda understand it) and the love for Tim B. Seems like it should be reversed to me. At least Jeff's tunes were memorable.

― darin (darin), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:30 (twenty years ago)

Nah, they weren't.

If your point is that Elliott Smith isn't quite considered a legend yet, I'm not sure I entirely disagree I with you--but trust me, he will be. (If you're arguing that he wasn't mediocre, I absolutely disagree with you.)

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:45 (twenty years ago)

"Jeff Buckley was not merely an awful lyricist; he was also an awful singer"

He also had awful hair.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:50 (twenty years ago)

Dammit, I keep looking for Greil Marcus's and Motorbooty's great rock-death charts on line (i.e.: rock deaths graded on 1-10 scale on contributions before death, lost potential contributions if they hadn't died, and method of death; highest possible score: 30), but am having no luck at all. How can those not be on the Internet by now?

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:55 (twenty years ago)

FREDDY MERCURY

― Open your eyes; you can fly! (ex machina), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)

I'd say Tupac's inspired more dire thug-poetry than any ossified corpse this side of Jim Morrison's (who wrote lizard-poetry, but equally vile). I still get students who get off on Tupac's shit precisely because he died young.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 15:58 (twenty years ago)

How do you write an essay from that angle?

― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

They don't – by the time they graduate high school and get to my class they've moved on to Fiddy.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 16:03 (twenty years ago)

i like "chantilly lace." maybe big bopper would've been bigger had he lived, who knows.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 16:09 (twenty years ago)

Mediocrity elevated to posthumous legend is probably more common than the flipside, the talented ones who died young but inspired no great mythology: Mel Street, Minnie Ripperton, Earl Hooker, Lyman Bostock. Who else?

― brianiac (briania), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 16:10 (twenty years ago)

Janis Joplin's voice could have been used on some better songs.

I don't think most people consider Freddie Mercury to be legendary - more like a beloved dead guy.

― billstevejim, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 16:34 (twenty years ago)

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