Taking Sides: Big Black vs. Butthole Surfers

Butthole Surfers - is it possible for a band to be this BAD? Supposed to be 'disturbing' (hey, let's get a few photos of deformed midgets for the album cover), supposed to be 'sonically challenging'(the only challenge is how to get through to track 3 without wanting to knock yourself unconscious), supposed to be 'confrontational' live (in other words even worse than the records, but you get to see Gibby Haynes naked, stoned and drooling. Oh and they have some slides with pictures of abortions and shit and stuff). Losers.

Of Dave Q's comparisons I like the Robocop vs. Deliverance best (sleek, sarcastic, "fascistic" vs. self-indulgence, red-neck glamour, inbred speed music...err something like that).

What are you like? The Butthole Surfers' '22 going on 23' is a great track with monster guitar riffs and disturbing samples. You are obviously a mentalist.

I don't know both bands' oeuvres well enough to comment, but I gather the Surfers did two good albums and loads of rubbish ones while Big Black did three G*R*A*T*E albums and nothing else. So that looks like Big Black are ahead on goal difference.

Big Black only made two albums (Atomizer and Songs About Fucking). Both those albums are better than whatever the BH Surfers turned out. I used to like the Surfers enough, but I don't think they've aged all that well. A song like "Going to Florida" I used to find really enjoyable, but I heard it the other day for the first time in 5 or 6 years, and it seemed to go on forever (and not in a good way).

Now, you take Brown Reason To Live. Every song is a masterpiece! 7 songs of something never heard before, exploring all kinds of sonic territory. I bet many have still never heard this album, as it's only available on LP from Alternative Tentacles.

Psychic, Powerless... Another Man's Sac is also full of tuneful experimental rock and very much like Deliverance ("pass me some o' dat dumbass ovah dere, hey boy"). Every song's a winner. Classic.

Some people like Locust Abortion Technician for it's amazing sonics, which sound great when high. It's actually Paul Leary's favorite album. But, most agree there's only two real "songs" on there, Human Canonball and Woly Boly. Personally, I think the two versions of Graveyard are great, tuneful songs and I like 22 going on 23. The guitar harmony is beautiful and uplifting after this Swans-like decent into oppressive bludgeoning and pitiful voiceovers.

Skipping over to Hairway to Steven, we have one very long intro track which most fans absolutely love called "Jimi", but might turn off those who are fond of 3-5 minute songs. In that case, we have the entire rest of the CD, with some of the best songs they ever recorded: Strawberry, Fast, Julio Iglesias, I Saw An X-Ray of A Girl Passing Gas, John E. Smoke and one other whose name escapes me.

The Pioughd album was a joke on their record company Rough Trade and the band's least favorite album. Besides 3 versions of Lonesome Bulldog, the album has a ton of great 3-5 minute fairly normal songs, with the exception of Blindman, which is similar to the first 20 minute long acid casualty of a song (Jimi) on Hairway to Steven and features the great lines: "I AM IRON MAN!" to which a chipmunk voice replies, "No, I'M Iron Man, you ALWAYS get to be Iron Man" and argument ensues as the music seems to get twirled up in a blender. Eventually, the chipmunk voice returns to scream, "Crazy, crazy fucking world, ha ha ha, crazy god damn world, ha ha ha!" The truly saving grace of this album is the first ever studio version of PSY, which is just one of the coolest songs ever written, has a nice melody and progression and turns from an instrumental jam to a fast rocker. It sounds pointless enough, but if you listen, it's about Nikki's antisocial tendencies, how she gets mixed up in the KKK and somehow it ends with the lines "Well, I'm still sleeping in the graveyard, I'm sleepin', I guess you don't believe me but you really should believe it, she fell in love with Lauren Becaul", so Nikki ran away, joined the KKK and fell in love with Lauren Becaul and the narrator is, by the way, still fascinated with graveyards (ever since Locust Abortion Technician, apparantly). The great thing about the Butthole Surfers is the continuity of themes: movie stars are frequently mentioned, as well as certain phrases, references to the graveyard, lots of odd returns of subject matter, fucking your family members, etc. On this Pioughd album is also a remake of Something, which was on the first Brown Reason To Live album, but in an entirely different form.

People really caught onto Independent Worm Saloon, but to me it's just a slightly warped very 90's-sounding Monsters of Rockish classic rock album. I don't like it. Lots of short rock songs, though.

ElectricLarryLand was much better, less ear-piercing, mellow rock. This was when everyone started claiming they ripped off Beck. Lots of fun songs on this album.

Weird Revolution is fairly boring, but ok for a play here or there. Two really good, fun songs. Very radio-friendly. Is that so bad?

As for Big Black, I'm fairly certain they put out at least 3 albums, didn't they? Songs About Fucking, Atomizer and The Hammer Party?? Poor Man's Eight Track was a compilation, correct? Songs About Fucking was great and Atomizer was pretty great, especially Kerosene, which is nuts. By Hammer Party, we realize what we partially realized on each of the first two albums, Big Black is a one-trick pony. All the songs sound the same. I don't think they could have made a decent fourth album if they tried. They'd pretty well mined the sound with their first album and Atomizer was just a continuation. In the end, I guess you have to decide whether you prefer industrial sounds to organic sounds, as Big Black is mostly mechanical slams and Butthole Surfers are mostly intestinal gurgles, but Butthole Surfers definitely offered more incarnations of themselves over their first 3 releases. Also, Big Black only conveyed 2 emotions: menacing and psychotic. Butthole Surfers added a few more: menacing, psychotic, goofy, empassioned, love and most importantly, fun.

I always liked the Butthole Surfers' alb titles more than their actual recs (which never sounded quite as far-out superpsych mindblowing freak out as I was led to believe)- 'Locust Abortion Technician', 'Rembrandt Pussyhorse', 'Hairway to Steven' - genius!

I expect the Buttholes put on a 'good show' - never saw 'em. Did see Big Black at the Hammersmith Clarendon, on a bill w/ World Domination Enterprises and Head of David. Ahh, those were the days blah blah

I hope to contribute something later about the Rusk fiasco.

Butthole Surfers, while their early albums are beauty, I saw a part of them on the LATE LATE SHOW, and it was very very embarrassing. Plus, h-stencil is right, they DID sue Corey Rusk.

I saw them a few weeks before in NYC with Kid606 opening up for them and let me tell you, it wasn't embarrassing. Sounded perfect as usual, just like old times. But, I am defending them too much. I should stop replying to this thread. And so, I will.

Deserved to be sued? I don't think so. I think a settlement could've been reached if the Buttholes had been interested in one, instead of punishing Corey for making sure their records were in print. Secondly, their actions put the business practices of a lot of small labels (most of whom can't afford full-time lawyers) in jeopardy. I'm all for artists retaining the rights of their work, but in the case of the Buttholes v. Rusk, I don't see how in any way that Corey was harming them. If anything, most artists who released stuff on Touch n' Go got a much better royalty rate (50%) than they'd ever get from a major for a new record, much less their back catalog. Corey wasn't paying them shit because they weren't selling their back catalog for shit. Yes, they should've renegotiated with Corey; yes, he shouldn't own the rights to their albums for eternity? But sue him and fuck over royally the only guy who, for a long spell, would put out your records? Fuck that.

I'd post a link to the excellent Chicago Reader article by Josh Goldfein about this whole mess for you, but those fuckers recently instituted a pay archive (despite Michael Miner's many columns deriding the Trib for having a pay archive policy).

Secondly, Touch n' Go theoretically could've sold a song to Budweiser, but would they? No. Be realistic.

And I doubt that Corey was making "tons of money" while the poor little Buttholes got nothing. The deal was fifty-fifty. Okay, so there were 4 guys in the band, but hey, Touch n' Go has (had?) 17 employees.

"If you go for a walk in the park and it's a beautiful sunny day but four guys jump out of a bush and beat you to the ground and take your money, that doesn't mean you shouldn't go in the park. It means you got robbed."

Here's the URL:

http://www.independentsounds.net/music/features/reading/indierock.htm

Based on the way King Coffey ran trance, I'd say they Butts are good guys and know the difference between "fair" and "corporate weasel". I believe TNG was seen to be a little corporate weasel.

"Rusk says now that he may have been too stubborn: "I suppose maybe I should have picked up the phone and called them. I have to admit I was insulted I was getting these calls from their manager." "Corey has a point," says Coffey. "He said, 'I didn't make a deal with the manager. I made a deal with the band. Why should I be discussing this with anyone other than Gibby?' But we pay our manager 15 percent of our income, and he has to earn his keep. Corey can't ignore him just because he doesn't like him. Corey didn't make it clear until well into the lawsuit that [he hadn't called back] because he wanted to talk to Gibby directly. We had to take it to court to force the issue because otherwise nothing would happen."

The legal battle started officially in December 1995 when the Buttholes sent Rusk a letter demanding that their share of the net profit be increased to 80 percent. When Rusk refused their proposal in writing, they sent him another letter demanding that he stop selling their records and give back the master tapes. When Rusk again refused, the Buttholes sued him and Touch and Go for copyright infringement, replevin (legalese for "return of property"), and invasion of privacy.

In January 1998, U.S. District Court Judge David H. Coar found in the Buttholes' favor on the first two counts, and in February he ordered Rusk to pay the Buttholes $100,000, to stop making and selling their merchandise, to return the master tapes, and to destroy his inventory of Buttholes records. Rusk smashed their merchandise in the back of a garbage truck, documenting the destruction on video, then filed the appeal that was decided on March 26. "One of the most painful moments of my life was going to [my] deposition," says Coffey. "It tore me up to see my name attached to a lawsuit against a friend. I've lost friends in this process, I had to witness my friends turn against each other, and there wasn't much I could do about it because everyone on both sides felt so strongly that they were right. "

I've never read anything that claimed that, even in less "biased" reports of the case's outcome in the mainstream Chicago media. If a former accountant and a former finance major can't figure out a way to live on more than $5 a day, then I'm not really sorry for them. I seem to remember an old article in Spin about the Surfers owning a large ranch house in Texas while still recording for Touch n' Go, so I don't believe they were ever that broke (at least, compared to any other punk rock bands that sold the amount they did).

Based on the way King Coffey ran trance, I'd say they Butts are good guys and know the difference between "fair" and "corporate weasel". I believe TNG was seen to be a little corporate weasel.

Well, what I believe is based on my experience on doing booking deals with Touch n' Go artists and working with the label's reps, and I've never heard anyone bemoan their deal, or Corey for that matter. Everyone I've ever known to record for Touch n' Go received a fifty- fifty split on net profits, which worked very well for most of the bands I worked with. Even people I know who quit working at Touch n' Go have enormous respect and esteem for Corey and the operation he runs (or used to run, I think his involvement has been severely curtailed since his motorcycle accident). So, if it comes down to people I know and trust and haven't screwed me in deals or Paul Leary (whom I've never met) talking shit in magazine articles, I know who I'd believe first.

Although I s'pose anyone willing to pay money to see the Butthole Surfers in 2001 deserves to be completely gullible.

If you really think Touch n' Go does nothing for its artists besides pressing records, and has no costs other than manufacturing, then you don't know much about how their business (or any other record label, large or small) is run. Hey, if the "Butts really made themselves," they could've released their own records and kept all the profits, but I don't think they could have ever sold as many records as they did that way.

One thing you forget about them is the fact that they toured straight for about 15 years and lived wherever. It's pretty hard to press records and send samples to college rock stations.

I didn't forget about that just because I didn't mention it. Give me a break.

Look, I'd love to debate this with you all day, but it's not getting anywhere, and since you're obviously a "fan," I'm not sure what the point is. In parting, though, if you think Corey is some sort of millionaire living off artists and that the Buttholes have always been starving, well then there's a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. I agree that they should've been able to renegotiate their contract, and that Corey should've been more flexible (he'd probably agree, in retrospect, too), but other than that, the Buttholes are, literally, buttholes for screwing over someone who did everything in his power to champion their music.

That's funny considering Touch and Go manufactured and distributed (and continues to maintain long after King Coffey ditched it) Trance Syndicate Records. King said he didn't have the money to do the label by himself, and T&G helped him out tremendously. Which would make him (and Craig Stewart) little more than glorified A&R guys.

Anyway, to the question at hand, Big Black remains my answer.

"[Touch & Go] were taking the stance that they had perpetual rights to these records," explains Coffey. "They wouldn't even entertain the notion of changing the royalty splits. We never agreed to this deal."

Touch & Go founder Corey Rusk's stance was that the band understood from their original oral agreement that what kept the company alive was the continued income from its back catalog, and for a time there were kneejerk reactions insisting that a victory for the Butts would usher in the death of the indie record industry. Haynes says the quote that hurt him most was one in the Chicago Reader by Fugazi frontman Ian MacKaye claiming that the whole lawsuit was about greed.

"I'd be willing to agree with that," says Haynes, "but whose greed is he talking about? Our greed or Corey Rusk's? What he didn't realize is that we sued Corey because he stopped paying us! He stopped paying us money for our records he'd been selling! We had no choice. It was sort of about greed, but ... intelligence, too, you know?"

The band won the lawsuit in the end and re-released the albums themselves -- Coffey having gotten plenty of relevant experience as founder of Touch & Go-distributed Trance Syndicate -- but found little to rejoice about, particularly after seeing not only the bad press, but also the number of peers that turned on them in print.

Seems to me, TNG should have been nicer to the band that brought 'em so much $$ with their own records as well as a share of all those wonderful Trance Syndicate bands.

The fact that they HADN'T been paid 50% for several years was why they wanted 80% and the reason Touch N' Go was fined $100,000 and forced to destroy their remaining copies; they couldn't PROVE they'd paid them.

But, it's obvious you're a fan of Corey Rusk's, so what's the point... ;-)

From what I understand, the lawsuit was not about whether Corey paid them or not, because if it was, the Buttholes could certainly have made claim to more than $100,000 in damages. (Assuming that just one of the Buttholes Touch n' Go-released albums sold 50,000 units, and that the net profit on each record sold was $5 [okay, that's a bit high maybe], that's still a total of $250,000 in profit to split two- ways.) The lawsuit was about the Buttholes retaining the rights to their recordings, because Corey wouldn't agree to an absurd 80% royalty rate (which I doubt they're getting now).

I don't believe for a second Gibby's claim that they were never paid by Touch n' Go, but my distrust of his claim is based solely on the many positive statements I've heard from, again, other artists, current and former employees, and other label people plus my own positive dealings with the Touch n' Go staff.

As far as 80% goes, it does sound outrageous. That's why they wouldn't ask for it without a reason. Corey admits he was too stubborn. The court found fault with his business dealings. Justice prevailed. They remastered the TNG albums and have been releasing them under their own label, Latino Bugger Veil, which I'm sure they'd rather not bother doing. Why do all the extra work and deal with your own overhead for albums that most people interested already bought years ago, especially when you're recording new material and touring again for a different label? If they were interested in making a huge profit with self-released material, they could have done so with Weird Revolution and the album they are currently recording. They could charge money for the 3 dozen or so mp3s they offer for free on their site (and at 22,000 downloads the first half of this month, I'd say they could make some money). As it stands, they've decided to release a rarities disc and their first two LPs as Latino Bugger Veil releases later this year, not to make a killing financially, just to make their fans happy who've been w/o new music for 5 years and have never been able to get the first 2 eps on cd format. This lawsuit was pretty cut and dried. It's not the OJ trial. Corey just thought he could get his way. He's so pissed at BHS, I'm sure he would sue them for slander/defamation if he had been found to been paying the 50%. The Butts have held to the same story from day one.

Seems to me, TNG should have been nicer to the band that brought 'em so much $$ with their own records as well as a share of all those wonderful Trance Syndicate bands.

Let's see... the Butthole Surfers left T&G years earlier to Rough Trade, so despite not really having anything to gain from it, Corey Rusk agreed to help out someone by fronting tons of cash to help out his little vanity label, and do all the important stuff (make, market, distribute). That seems like a fair guy to me.

You seem to think that the BH Surfers brought aboot Slint, Big Black/Shellac, the Jesus Lizard, Girls Against Boys type money, which they may have, but I doubt. And I'm sure putting out John Boy albums (and other such wonderful Trance Syndicate bands) didn't really bring in the cash.

It also doesn't follow logically for them to risk their reputations, partnerships, friendships and all else if they WERE being paid 50%, which is A LOT, especially after being financially DRAINED by Capitol.

Why would the band be "drained" by Capitol? They sold over 600 000 copies of Electriclarryland, which is probably more than they had sold of their T&G albums combined. Plus licensing their songs to Nintendo commercials should've put money in their pocket. Plus royalties from "Pepper" (and even "Jesus Built My Hotrod"). As hstencil said, for a former accountant and a finance major, they really seem to not be very good with money.

But, it's obvious you're a fan of Corey Rusk's, so what's the point... ;-)

I'm no fan of his (I don't know him), and I probably own less than 10 LPs/CDs on Touch & Go. And I agree he shouldn't own their albums forever just because years prior they verbally worked out a deal. But the way they went aboot it is ridiculous. The band lost its hardcore audience (save you), become an alt-rock one hit wonder, and decided that because they couldn't sue Capitol, they'd go after the albums that actually meant something to people (why else would they ignore the Alt. Tent. releases?). If they weren't getting paid, that's not right, but I can't imagine they're selling more albums with their own label than having the albums on Touch & Go.

Another question to ask: Why don't all the bands/labels that got fucked over by the Surfers bankrupting Rough Trade in 1991 sue the Butthole Surfers for royalties and the like that they never saw?

That being said... I just heard Locust Abortion Technique for the first time a few months ago, and it totally didn't interest me. Maybe that's the wrong album to start with? I think the only other thing I ever had by them was Electriclarryland in about the 4th Grade. All the talk of LSD and nightmare trips has rekindled my interest.

Big Black by the way. El dopa fixed me, alright?

I never remembered CVB having these monstrous gated tom drums... or anything like a song with backwards violins and a sped up voice in a bad english accent talking why "it's oll bein' bouh a buh-hole sehfeh"

oh, I'm absolutely certain CVB used both of those tricks, tho I'd have to look up particulars...

(Scratch Acid is a good nomination)

PCPPEP-it's BRtL, LIVE!!!

Psychic, Powerless- this's the one i listen to the least of em all. not to say that the songs are bad, but for the most part this is almost the tamest of the bunch. to me, at least...except for Cherub.

Rembrandt/Davis- starting to get creepy here and some genuinely strange sounds but man, does this album just scream out to me...lots of great actual songs,too.

Locust Abortion- i can't say enough about this album. it changed my mind about how i should view "music". and scared the shit outta me and my buddies.

Hairway- the peak of the BHS magick. i loves this one as equally as any other, but man does Jimi kick it right into the gutter!!! gotta love it for that, X-Ray of Grrl and Jon E Smoke alone...

Widowermaker EP- starting to lose themselves a bit here. some good tunes, but nothing really eventful.

Pighoued(whatever)- good for a laugh, and for the remake of Something. oh, and PSY. that song's pretty neat...

Independent Worm- good for when it came out and still makes me think o' them days. Who Was In My Room, Wooden, DustDevil,Alcohol all classics.

Whole Truth- why, it's a live buttleg!good stuff...

Larryland- and the end is certainly coming...a few good shots, but it doesn't hold a candle really. strangely, the only BHS w/ a hit...

Weird Revolution- i refuse to buy this, as i have After the Astronaut on disc....crap.

Humpty Dumpty LSD- a fond B-sidey farewell...has some great songs on it just the same.

that's it.

Are you being sarcastic?

I think you can still download that DOUBLE LIVE in mp3 format from their site somewhere.

Then you should jettison the pretender and go right to the throne. "L Dopa" is a thin re-write of "Wardance" by Killing Joke.

The first half of Key Lime Pie is utterly amazing. Don't let anyone tell you anything different. Which doesn't change the fact that Big Black is still the winner over the Buttholes. OK.

but seriously jaz should fucking sue james murphy already

I don't think so, but you've happened upon a fascinating discovery:

http://www.mbajungle.com/images/contentimgs/apple_orange.jpg

how i wish i had an Official copy of that to complete my Latino Buggerveil collection...

Sun City, eh?
i keep hearing the name but nothing i've heard of em makes me wanna hear more.
suggest a good point to start wiff.

Have you ever heard "L Dopa", Stence?

i totally agree that sun city girls blow the buttholes out the water but there are a few vague similarities and i was hoping to provoke a debate (no takers. plus ca change). while i am here, can i publicly declare my thanks to hstencil for introducing me to scg? they have given me more pleasure than almost anything besides my girlfriend's tongue in the last five years.

OK, NOW I'LL GO BACK TO EMBRACING THE FIFTIES.

yes alex, i have heard both "l dopa" and "wardance," i believe we have discussed this before, they do not sound a damn thing alike. unless there's a part of "wardance" where the band stops playing and jaz sardonically sez in a midwestern accent "wardance fix me, all right" and i missed it or something.

I have the cassettes, but for some reason I began treating them like shit sort of accidentally and now the covers are all wrinkled. The tapes are still great though. They were high-quality anti-eat cassettes, I guess. I sure am glad they put up the mp3's though.