"Soul" or "R&B"?

Oh wait: "Philly Soul". DAMN YOU GAMBLE AND HUFF

http://recollectionbooks.com/siml/images/Images/adorno.JPG

1920s-WW2: race music

1948-63: Rhythm & Blues

1963-74: Soul

1966-82: Funk

1971-83: Disco

1980-1989: Urban

1990-present: R&B

sidebar:

1973-83: hiphop

1979-93: rap

1993-present: hiphop

Disco doesn't fit into this picture, as most of the songwriters/producers were indeed white.

the timeline is reductive of course and could splinter off into house rather than urban (after disco) but whatever.

well yeah the point is that genre-wide generalizing labels are reductive too. I was trying to cite the generic terms for black music in the mainstream (hence the abscence of subcultures like house etc). Surely we can all agree (or argue) about how great the music is and leave the name game to the less enlightened?

hahaha my bad dude i wasnt even trying to be serious.

I tend to think R&B is pre-rock, occasionally with mock gospel overtones (Who Threw the Whiskey in the Well, etc)

Soul is usually credited to either Ray Charles or James Brown from what I've read, so late 50's maybe? Also, it seems to infuse gospel in a more respectful way.

My guess anyway.

But then, once Funk hit the scene, it becomes more confusing to me. Early Funk is pretty clear as it's raucous, but then it gets smoothed out between Disco and Soul, which almost puts it back into the soul camp. I couldn't imagine Al Green being labled funk.

And what about 20's through 40's? I know Race Records was the term used then, but wouldn't R&B be retroactive? Then what qualifies as Jazz vocals vs. R&B in those instances?

I'm still moving massive amounts of files on Soulseek as a result of stewing over this daily (as with many other taxonomy questions that anti-taxonomists blast me for daily).

There was a period in the 60s and early 70s when soul replaced R&B in common parlance. It wasn't until the early 90s that you'd hear people use the term "R&B" (never "rhythm & blues") when describing contemporary black music.

Not "noise", no. More like artistically worthless muzak.

If no one else does, perhaps the Funk Brothers agree with you.

R&B was the race music that predated the Rock & Roll umbrella, and was not Swing, going back to the earliest Boogie Woogie and Hokum records.

Doo Wop was one of the primary directions of R&B during the Rock & Roll umbrella, and bridged the R&B to Soul gap, but caught so caught up in the RNR net that it's not seen as the progression of R&B to Soul.

Soul basically is when Ray Charles/James Brown gave way to Sam Cooke/Jackie Wilson, and was capitalized in 1959 with foundation of Motown and redireciton of Stax in the 60s.

R&B became a term used again after the fall of Disco and the watering down of Funk in the early 80s. Kind of a catch all term for Black music.

I think for a while in the 80s, R&B remained an industry term while most listeners called it Soul.

By the late 80s/early 90s, R&B was used by the listeners as well, kinda wiping away Soul in contemporary usage.

I think of Soul almost to mean 60s/70s "Black oldies" today, with no other contemporary meaning.

For a while I was confused by the term 'Modern Soul', often seen on eBay listings. Then I realised its purpose was to distinguish 1980s soul/r&b (pre New Jack Swing) from '60s and '70s soul. Those 'Northern Soul' / Mod people in Britain have caught up with '80s stuff now, but in that collectors' scene the term 'Modern Soul' is needed to describe a particular distinction/niche. At least, that's my understanding of it.

I've got no kick againt modern jazz

M Coleman's description above is accurate and fair. However, a few weeks ago, I downloaded some old Tribune music articles from the late seventies and early eighties. I was reminded of how I liked opening the paper and seeing some interview with a black musician under the heading "soul" in groovy font. I like the term soul because it pays tribute to black people's culture.

And where to we put "boogie"? Post-disco, part-modern soul?