So, I'm a rather dogmatically rationalist atheist, but I really like gospel music.

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Is this even permitted?

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:25 (twenty-one years ago)

like the very much permitted classic black gospel stuff, or like 2 guys singing along to a korg workstation on tbn?

― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

it's encouraged.

― Michael J McGonigal (mike mcgonigal), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuck yeah the former is what I meant. But other kinds of religious music, too - plainchant, psalms, motets. Hell, probably the Quwwalli and Indian Classical I rock sometimes counts, too.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Atheists are permitted from listening to religious music? Isn't that slightly paradoxical?

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably, but it's really just a figure of speech. What I mean is it feels wierd to get so much out of music intended to glorify Jesus when I don't buy into that at all.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:44 (twenty-one years ago)

You're going to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:45 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.chick.com/tractimages64743/1022/1022_22.gif

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:46 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, but I get that anyway whether I listen to the music or not, right? May as well dig it, then!

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

i think you're projecting the part about organized religion you don't like onto musicians who probably feel the same way as you, Austin. I think there are more secular artists that, for lack of a better term, "preach" far more rigid "codes" in their songs than those who are "touched" artists. Although the latter are glorifying someone specific -- in a specific religion. Perhaps it's jist the openness of it that bothers you?

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:49 (twenty-one years ago)

(btw, I'm an atheist too, who would like to believe I'm dogmatically rational)

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:50 (twenty-one years ago)

What's the difference between Alex Chilton, The Flaming Lips, Power Soure (the "Dear Mr. Jesus" band), Soul-Junk, and Low singing about Jesus?

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:51 (twenty-one years ago)

that's Power Source.. sorry.

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, a lot of what I don't like about organized religion is the belief in God. Also, the idea that a particular religion has all the answers (and I'm aware of the irony that my dogmatic rationalism means I think I have all the answers. It's different when I do it cuz I'm RIGHT!) and therefore should be taught in schools and evolution doesn't exist and so on.

In any case, this was brought to mind by reading the Richard Dawkins interview from last friday's Salon while playing some 5 Blind Boys From Alabama and going 'fuck yeah!' to both.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:55 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry, 'creationism should be taught in schools.'

Basically I oppose huge chunks of their social agenda, and that social agenda is pretty front and center in the music.

As for more secularly associated musicians playing religious music - that's different because religion isn't the only thing motivating them.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:57 (twenty-one years ago)

If it's suppression of information in an educational context that pisses you off, I think you have PLENTY of other targets besides organized religion at which to aim!

And everyone who is of a particular religion has the same social agenda? Uh, no.

As for more secularly associated musicians playing religious music - that's different because religion isn't the only thing motivating them.

Are you sure about that? And why wouldn't something else be motivating self-described Christian artists playing music besides Christianity?

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:59 (twenty-one years ago)

> If it's suppression of information in an educational context that pisses you off

That's one thing - there's certainly plenty more.

> And everyone who is of a particular religion has the same social agenda? Uh, no.

Of course not, but certainly the church someone attends is a big indicator of what their social agenda will be. It helps to remember I'm in Texas.

> Are you sure about that? And why wouldn't something else be motivating self-described Christian artists playing music besides Christianity?

I'm basing that on the presence of a variety of lyrical content vs. a consistency of lyrical content.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I will continue to think those "sacred steel" guys (House of God denominational music - pedal steel guitars, from whence came Robert Randolph, among others) kick ass no matter what I believe in.

― Chris Wright (DrFunktronic), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I understand that lots of people bring lots of "baggage"/ "issues" to religious music and it tends to be religions they feel themselves to have had problems with -- i.e. this isn't really about Berber or South Indian religious music it's pretty much abotu the Xtian/ Catholic capital-g god and I understand that.

I love gospel deeply and yeah I believe in God but I'm not a Christian, which puts me in a really weird little boat, but anyway, I've though about this a lot in the last decade.

Apply the same logic to anything else -- I can't listen to blues 'cause I'm really happy lately, can't listen to dub since I'm not stoned nor Jamaican, I can't play country music since I'm from the suburbs -- and it should just pretty plainly be obvious that it's all just window dressing.

― Michael J McGonigal (mike mcgonigal), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:15 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)
king diamond and stryper, at the end of the day, are motivated by the exact same thing. they both like playing music. same with alex chilton. same with michael w. smith. alex chilton sings a lot about what appears to be earthly love. michael w. smith sings a lot about what appears to be heavenly love. i'm not sure one has any more or less variety than the other.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:17 (twenty-one years ago)

you don't like religion and you're into old jesusy black music?? well, consider my mind blown.

i was hoping you'd like the twinkly tbn shit. i saw randy travis on there the other day and he really held my attention. but then my taste in tv is more abt texture and language instead of character and plot (heyo deadwood!)

― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:17 (twenty-one years ago)

speaking of twinkly tbn shit, rich mullins' classic "awesome god" is a fairly awesome bubblegum song. or, at least, it would be a fairly awesome bubblegum song if someone would speed it up a bit.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Randy Travis just fine. It helps to remember I'm in Texas.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:22 (twenty-one years ago)

So yeah, white Jesusy stuff is fine with me as well as long as it's good music. I've got a real nice Emmylou Harris gospel record someplace around here...

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

well, I give you permission, as a fellow atheist, to listen to sacred music, Austin, if it makes you feel any better. :)

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:26 (twenty-one years ago)

i've almost submitted about 12 different variations on the same bitchy post, but... i don't get this thread. are you really uh concerned abt this or do you just want to talk abt gospel? cos being irreligious and liking american religious music is a taste pattern that's abt 100 years old.

― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Geoff - It doesn't usually bother me much, but since tonight I'm feeling a bit wierd about it I thought I'd say something (I'm sure it has a lot to do with the general political climate.) Talking about gospel is fine too, natch.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:30 (twenty-one years ago)

being irreligious and liking american religious music is a taste pattern that's abt 100 years old.

my guess is (a) it's quite a bit older than that and (b) it ain't just american religious music.

but that doesn't mean it isn't worth discussing.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, if I felt uncomfortable listening to music that promotes ideas associated with agendae that conflict with mine, I wouldn't be able to listen to any music at all.

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Exactly, donut, which is why I brought up 5%ers earlier.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:34 (twenty-one years ago)

For some reason I find it hard to imagine having this problem with proper gospel music. The bulk of halfway-traditional music from around the world has some sort of religious or ritual component wrapped up somewhere inside it, because the bulk of just-plain-culture from around the world has some sort of religious or ritual component wrapped up inside it; I can't imagine what could be wrong with appreciating the ways various people make various sounds that fit with their various systems of belief. Don't forget Western classical in this regard, either, particularly in the choral sense.

Where I do start to see this tension developing is in strictly modern / secular music, where the "ritual" usage is pretty much limited to reflecting modern society -- meaning that anyone who tries to fill it with strong religion or misogyny or violence or whatever else you find distasteful is also kind of offering it into the culture you're apart of. And even there it's a slight tension; we're all constantly enjoying music we don't agree with, whether we realize it or not, and it only really comes to the fore if (a) the lyrics are really in your face about disagreeing with you on key unbendable moral issues, or (b) you realize the money you spend on it is going in bad directions.

But hell, don't have problems with listening to gospel just because you don't believe in god -- that'd be just as bad as not eating with Christians for the same reason! They make nice music about stuff they believe, and other people make nice music about the stuff they believe; unless you're found some really weird discomforting strain of politicized hateful gospel, I think you're doing fine.

― nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:08 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, i was going to say, if you can appreciate christians as human beings, then there's no reason you can't appreciate them as musicians, or any kind of artists. you just have to take a particular version of the imaginative leap that you take whenever you're appreciating any work of art.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:19 (twenty-one years ago)

are all of you posting from 1962??

there, that was the bitchy version.

― g e o f f (gcannon), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:22 (twenty-one years ago)

It would have to be from 1963. This is ILM after all.

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:25 (twenty-one years ago)

jesussss don't point that crosss at me

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:49 (twenty-one years ago)

jessssusss, you keep on using me
can I change my life for any price?
Oh, jesus, wont you listen to me?

― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:56 (twenty-one years ago)

jesus was a cool cat, daddy-o

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Is this even permitted?

A lot of people are highly into black metal without being satanists, so I guess it is permitted ;)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 07:53 (twenty-one years ago)

there is also, of course, a christian variant on every form of music, from power noise to black metal to dance music.

nice to see rivch mullins get props -- he was pretty goddamn good. starflyer 59 = best band i can think of in the christian pop-rocks "ghetto."

― Michael J McGonigal (mike mcgonigal), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 08:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Infidels Enjoying the Emotional Impact of Religious Sounds

― RS_LaRue (RSLaRue), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:39 (twenty-one years ago)

The bulk of halfway-traditional music from around the world has some sort of religious or ritual component wrapped up somewhere inside it, because the bulk of just-plain-culture from around the world has some sort of religious or ritual component wrapped up inside it; I can't imagine what could be wrong with appreciating the ways various people make various sounds that fit with their various systems of belief.

I think this point about culture in general is very important, and one of the main conclusions I reached after think about more or less the same issues.

― RS_LaRue (RSLaRue), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

People! Hello! Al Green?!?!?!

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 13:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Another site I post to had a pretty involved conversation including several people who were atheist/agnostic but were actually in gospel choirs. So I think listening to it is within the realm of reason.

― mike h. (mike h.), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

geir actually makes a good point

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark Richardson really hands those Jesus cards out. it's somewhat awkward.

― Beta (abeta), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 16:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I am a rather d.r.a. myself, but I dig some funky gospel music. Not a big fan of the white variety, "sacred music," but I do tune into this show on Sunday mornings on WSM where they play it, it's good for a hangover in that when you hear it you decide to just have an early bloody mary and then put on my usual Sunday-morning music, Aretha's "Spirit in the Dark," the first Bee Gees album, or "The Belle Album." God, I wish I still had all these videos I made when I lived in Memphis and recorded all these insane, out-of-tune but amazing gospel groups, with incredible electric guitar work--that shit drove like God's favorite group was Prime Time or someone, and the vocals were just nuts. The Lord loves his lambs to skronk!

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

two months pass...

i'm really loving a compilation called greatest gospel gems (specialty records, 1991), featuring the soul stirrers, the pilgrim travelers, dorothy love coates, johnnie taylor, etc. is it blasphemous to say that this stuff is especially enjoyable while i'm drunk?

― chief of chaff (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 8 July 2005 02:01 (twenty years ago)

Stop being so "interesting" and "well-rounded," you self-important know-it-all dumbasses.

― You big dumbasses, Friday, 8 July 2005 03:03 (twenty years ago)

are you the real stoner guy or the fake one?

― chief of chaff (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 8 July 2005 03:05 (twenty years ago)

Humanity won't be happy until the last mongrel is hung with the guts of the last sheepfux0r!

― chef of chapstick, Friday, 8 July 2005 03:09 (twenty years ago)

i've never listened to gospel while drunk. hungover, yes. drunk, no.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 8 July 2005 03:10 (twenty years ago)

xpost

Perhaps you didn't get the memo:

Now why would you register "Stoner Guy"

The real Stoner Guy is someone else who may post as a registered user at his/her leisure. There is no fake stoner guy as far as we know of yet. We can't have it both ways here at registerland international. When you see "Stoner Guy," you'll know it's the real deal.

― The Memo For Your Big Dumb Ass, Friday, 8 July 2005 03:14 (twenty years ago)

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