The Final Cut: Roger Waters Thread

I continue to hear echoes of The Final Cut in today's music:

The Flaming Lips' last two albums ("35000 Feet Of Despair" off of Zaireeka sounds like a Final Cut outtake), Grandaddy and The Black Heart Possession all seem to owe some debt to the Waters' desperate howls and the proggy verite-virtuality of the production.

However, I must close this post by stating that I haven't heard this album in about 12 years...

Um, isn't that about all he's released solo-wise anyway?

Most memorable moment on The Final Cut -- the jet swoop followed by the strings.

The Final Cut, with its numerous references to certain politicians of the time (Alexander Haig, anyone?) is of most interest now as a historical document of 1982-3 (Falklands, the then- still possible M.A.D.) mixed up with Waters' usual obsessions about class, alienation and his father. Yes, it's a v. personal record, and it's in that respect that it scores over e.g. "The Wall", where the protagonist is deliberately kept once removed from the author. The Wall is the greater record tho' cos it has better songs and more variety.

"...Hitch hiking" was rubbish. Not heard any other Waters solo stuff.

The videos for the album were great though.

Had a weird urge to play this today for the first time in umpteen years. I was kind of shocked by how much the opening sounds like Spiritualized. A few of the lyrics make me a little bit squirmy, but nothing's that awful. Honestly, if you changed a few words and got rid of the shouty voice, it could almost pass for something that just came out. And I still like the stream-of-consciousness bit in Not Now John.

I remember being able to tolerate "Not Now John," but the rest was dreadful.

This record is neither as great as fans make it out to be nor as horrid as its biggest detractors suggest. It being Roger Waters, virtually every song is very tuneful and the production is like DSotM on steroids the attention to detail is so precise. But it being Roger Waters, it's also less a memorial to the post-war dream than himself.

I may be wrong, but I remember listening to a radio show back when I was a teen where Roger Waters was talking about some new breakthrough in holographic sound that Pink Floyd had made. I think it was for this album. Obviously we all know about this now, as it was such a huge success...

Does anyone know how long he has lived in NYC? I occasionally see in the tabs that he moves in hoity-toity New York circles. I also heard that he is a regular and very good pool player--may even be on a team--in Lower Manhattan bars around City Hall like Raccoon Lodge.

his pro fox-hunting remarks are repulsive by the way...who would've thunk?

I may be wrong, but I remember listening to a radio show back when I was a teen where Roger Waters was talking about some new breakthrough in holographic sound that Pink Floyd had made. I think it was for this album.

The holophonics entry on Wikipedia gets into the details for this. In short it's a step up from the basic mannequin head microphone, but it also requires proper playback systems, etc.

I first listened to this album (on the day it came out too!) with headphones and the rocket attack at the beginning of "Get Your Filthy Hands..." FREAKED me out.

Actually comes off pretty cool (well other than his mom jeans):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HX68d2s6mI

Odd bloke.

For years, always came across as a self-aggrandising asshole, then one time (during the "making of" documentary) came across as generous regarding other people's contributions, and since then has seemed OK. (still don't like his music at all, but..)

You reckon he had some major therapy at some point?

He did, he has said that he's much happier after many years of therapy.

He's currently touring The Wall. I for one am very happy about this since I was too young to see the 80-81 Wall gigs. Apparently the stage show is at least as spectacular as those gigs, and the advances in technology since then should make it even better. Plus since The Wall was always mostly a Waters solo thing anyway, there shouldn't be much difference.

Plus since The Wall was always mostly a Waters solo thing anyway, there shouldn't be much difference.

No Gilmour = no interest in this at all.

It holds a lot more appeal to me than seeing him do all of DSOTM live. I was at the Coachella show where that was going to happen, stuck around for the first half which was mostly solo/The Wall/Final Cut material and walked over to another area for the DSOTM part.

The therapy has made him less of an asshole. On the other hand, don't be surprised if his much less aggressive mood means if he ever releases some new music again, it'll sound more like Gilmour or Gilmour-Floyd than anything else. :)

He made a deal with Gilmour for this tour, Gilmour will play guitar at one European show but it won't be announced in advance which one.

He made a deal with Gilmour for this tour, Gilmour will play guitar at one European show but it won't be announced in advance which one.

Yeah I mentioned that on one of the other PF/Gilmour threads.

probably easier now that he's aged better than gilmour

Inspired by all the reissues, I finally got around to checking out Radio KAOS. You know, it's really not bad. If you pretend that it's by some band that has nothing to do with Pink Floyd (Men Without Hats spring to mind, and I *love* Men Without Hats) it's nice. No regrets for taking the time to hear it. Have to get to Amused now...

Yeah I love that album. The concept is actually pretty cool and the music rocks. The slow songs are v. affecting too.

TPL, possibly almost alone in the world, stands up for this album: http://nobilliards.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/pink-floyd-final-cut.html

oh i fucking love the final cut, excited to read this

Great piece Marcello.

great write up. I think this is a woefully underrated album. I certainly prefer it to most of Division Bell and Reason and all of Water's solo output. though who was it you were referring to as the person who would eventually perform along waters in Berlin?

Excellent, Marcello. I particular like the analysis of the title song. And thanks for the detail about the making of, a lot of which I didn't know. But hey, I stood up for this LP upthread.

haven't read marcello's piece yet but I tried listening to this album again recently, made it as far as "nips" and bailed, fuck this ridiculous cunt imo

Kudos - a very interesting read. The Dubliner is Sinead O'Connor?

yes

wait that's like 20 seconds into the record right? (xxpost)

Great piece, Marcello. I always thought Gilmour's whining about "if those songs weren't good enough for The Wall, they're not good enough now" was bullshit. They didn't fit The Wall's narrative, but a visionless Gilmour wouldn't have any sense of anything like that.

Also, didn't know about that Bley record, or Haden's notes. He once claimed that he was apolitical between Liberation Music Orchestra and 2005's Not In Our Name; glad to see that wasn't the case.

I think I speak for all of us when I say that the real measure of Marcello's talent will be revealed when he does the same for The Pro's and Cons of Hitchhiking.

Not a number one album, sad to say.

True enough – tho I was only partly kidding. That record has always been utterly impenetrable to me, and your piece on TFC–like many of the TPL entries—revealed a ton to me about an album I never fully understood despite listening to it possibly hundreds of times as a teenager – for instance, I had probably heard that line in "Southampton Dock" about "the dark stain spreading between their shoulder blades" and still it never occurred to me that the woman bidding them adieu could be Thatcher herself.

Larger point being that by this point in Waters' career, his albums were all at least implicitly (and in the case of TPaCoH, explicitly) lucid dreams. His explorations of paranoia all become so kaleidoscopic, intertwined and naked that shards of his meditations on celebrity, geopolitics, xenophobia, paternal abandonment, maternal suffocation, or institutionalized cruelty resonate more for me than the narrative wholes. In that sense, as much as these records opened Waters up to criticism for being a sexist and a narcissist, they've always struck me as quite brave in their own way if not always successful.

All of which is to say, an exploration of the decidedly least beloved of his 79-84 trilogy would be of some interest. To me, anyway.

I had probably heard that line in "Southampton Dock" about "the dark stain spreading between their shoulder blades" and still it never occurred to me that the woman bidding them adieu could be Thatcher herself

It's not though, is it? I'm fairly sure Thatcher wasn't down there at the dock when the task force set sail, and even if she was, she'd never have been seen dead in a summer frock. It's obviously the wife or girlfriend of a serviceman. This is a misreading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mViUtaV4foM

Now you've lost me.

Was Radio KAOS a number one record?

No, but On An Island was.

Wet Dream wasn't though.

Firstly, a rainy day in early April on Southampton Dock is no place for anyone to be wearing a summer frock. But besides that, each detail in that verse could depict different people. She has a hankerchief in hand AND white knuckles grabbing a railing AND waving goodbye all at the same time. The point is that "all" agreed that war shouldn't reoccur but now here they are on the dock playing the same roles as before. Thatcher alone was not responsible for the Falklands, and this character or characters represents the position of much of the nation who were on board with it at the time.

Apologies if this is stating the obvious.

Not obvious at all, OK that's your reading of the verse and you're entitled to it but personally I think you're over-interpreting it and it's actually a lot simpler than that, it's just a wife or girlfriend.

It's not really my interpretation. I haven't really pondered it too much before - the general meaning of the song is very clear I think. It's a summary of what the whole album is about - the death of "the post-war dream" - in this case the dream of peace. Also, it possible these details may well be personal and specific to Roger Waters' own life because he does do that a lot in his lyrics.

Alright, so this new album with supposedly heavy involvement from Mr. Godrich is coming right up.

I'm actually anticipating its release.

i'll give it a listen. I don't care for any of his solo albums (unless you count the Final Cut as a solo album) but the Last Refugee was promising

If Godrich can manage to get consistently listenable vocal takes from him... always the worst of the Floyd vocalists for me, and on a bad day his voice is fucking painful to listen to.

"the new Roger Waters album is very good" are not words I ever expected to write or say but there you go. It is very good.

Looks like he's backed by a Godrich compiled crew of LA's Gen X session guy best, including Roger Manning from Jellyfish, Jonathan Wilson and Joey Waronker.

i like his voice and respect the legacy but don't care for much of what he's done since animals. even on that album and wish you were here, his self-righteous, accusatory bitterness threatens to become a drag. despite my teenage enthusiasm, i've come to hate most of the wall and basically all of the final cut. i half remember liking a song off the pros and cons of hitchiking.

so, how much will i love this?

in the plus column, i quite like jellyfish, radiohead and joey waronker's last name.

I like his dad! Actually, I love the whole Waronker story. Simon was one of the founders of Liberty records, along with Al Bennett and Theodore Keep. If those names sound familiar, that is where David Seville (aka Ross Bagdasarian) got the names for the Chipmunks, after Liberty made "Witch Doctor" a hit. Liberty went on to sign Jan and Dean and some stuff like that, while Simon's son Lenny was childhood best buds with Randy Newman (they lived in the same neighborhood and took piano lessons together). Liberty's first release was by Randy's uncle, Lionel. When Lenny took over Liberty he sometimes hired Randy and pal Van Dyke Parks for sessions, and of course he shepherded their careers when he later took over Warner Bros. (having been promoted by Mo Ostin). Ostin and Waronker made WB's reputation as an artist friendly label. And so on.

Anyway, Roger Waters.

you had me at chipmunks

this album feels very much like a follow up to the Final Cut. If you liked the Final Cut, you will like that. If you hate the Final Cut, you will not like it.

(I love the Final Cut)

fuck, i love the final cut and roger manning!

also, yeah, godrich got good vocal takes from waters. not sure how much futzing happened, msot of it sounds pretty clean actually. and the video of waters singing Pigs that's been circulating from the other night he def does NOT appear to be miming that, and he sounds really good, so maybe his voice has gotten stronger.

this might be the first roger waters solo album i listen to more than once

how much, um, you know, racism and that, roger waters stuff, is in this

nothing overt that i've noticed yet, but maybe repeated listens will reveal his, um, preoccupations

👍

I could kind of really use a roger water album right now where he's just like this dad who doesn't like war

No calling yoko ono a yellow bitch or whatever, or mentioning any women at all tbh

I need many more of you to listen first and report back before I venture to try tho

what roger waters racism?

"No calling yoko ono a yellow bitch"

oh, well, unfamiliar with that. there is none of that present. lyrically this is a very strong record. it's stronger lyrically than musically, but musically it's pretty good also, certainly more listenable than any of his other solo albums, almost all of which I can't bear

it wouldn't be a roger waters album without the bill maher-style use of inappropriate epithets, but they are kept to a minimum (i think a derogatory term for homosexuals pops up at one point and that's about it). considering how utterly gross large chunks of amused to death are i'd say that's getting off easy.

godrich has been a good influence on him. the music is mostly pastiche (and not just of Those Three albums, but also a lot of Animals, some Meddle, hell even When You're In pops up at one point), the non-infringing version of pink floyd. the ballads on this album are the best he's ever done.

as far as lyrics, he's old and pissed off and says "fuck" a whole lot, as well as "nincompoop" at least once, but while there are lyrics i could single out as bad overall the lyrics are good. the suite of the last three songs is excellent.

vocals are good for an old guy who could never sing worth a damn, whether it's just good takes or autotune makes no difference to me.

i have no reservations about calling this the best solo record of roger waters' career. whether that's enough to make it worth listening to is entirely up to you.

Yeah, agree with rush, in that this is probably his best, most listenable solo album.

But, jeezohman, why all the swearing? It just seems excessive.

And yeah, I totally get Sea Change vibes from the last suite of songs. Pretty cool.

Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking group listening event -- who's in?

okay, thank you everyone for showing zero interest.

thought i might actually have to listen to it again.

Missed this post or I'd've been in. love that album.

yo i'm down

I'd love to do a Pros and Cons listening event right here in 2024. For a while it was my favorite Waters solo record. Eventually I realized I hate the saxophone parts, so -- what with all the saxophone parts -- it became my least favorite Waters solo record. But I love Waters' solo career, as a whole... been a few years since I played Pros and Cons start to finish. I'm curious what I'd make of it now. Anyone want to play along?

hi.

Ah, Austin! Hoisted by your own 2020 petard after all!

The title track is great, the rest of the album is negligible. I've saved you 35 minutes.