Defend the Indefensible: Pinkerton

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The most overblown piece of crap ever.

― Anthony Lombardi (CCPO), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:06 (twenty years ago)

it's not as good as the blue album but still pretty gosh darn great!

― Aerodynamic (Aerodynamic), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:10 (twenty years ago)

It has "Across the Sea" on it.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

If Pinkerton had proceeded the Blue album then they would've been said to have "sold out" and gone pop/mainstream. Risvers is a Harvard man and was smart enough to "reverse sell out"

― Cunga (Cunga), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:14 (twenty years ago)

it's fun to sing along to at karaoke

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:19 (twenty years ago)

"Tired of Sex" > "Song Against Sex"? probably not, but those first two albums were great. I'd rather spend time bludgeoning the last three albums.

― Maxwell Power (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:24 (twenty years ago)

Maxwell OTM

― latebloomer: Pain Don't Hurt (latebloomer), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:26 (twenty years ago)

I doesn't have "Hash Pipe" or "Beverly Hills" on it.

― John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:27 (twenty years ago)

I think Liz Phair and Rivers should just get hitched and do a duet album.

― Maxwell Power (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:42 (twenty years ago)

how could you call pinkerton indefensible? regardless of what you may think of them/us, a whole fucking generation of teenagers grew up with that record and fucking idolized it. in my hometown there is an adopt-a-street program, and a group of kids who graduated with me adopted a road under the name "El Scorcho". say what you will about weezer on their last three albums, or that rivers is a fucking maniac who literally hates his fans, that album really was *important*, in some way shape or form.

and i really dont care how uncool this makes me sound.

― JD from CDepot, Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:50 (twenty years ago)

I know this really has nothing to do w/ the album, but it's kind of irritating to hear people refer to it as a "concept" album or as some reaction to / dialogue with Madame Butterfly.

― Maxwell Power (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 02:55 (twenty years ago)

this record is classic, are you kidding

― brokenfuses (brokenfuses), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 03:01 (twenty years ago)

Anthony's a dick.

― Jimmy Mod Is Great At Getting Us Into Trouble (ModJ), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 03:04 (twenty years ago)

JD OTM. But I still never want to heart it again.

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 03:11 (twenty years ago)

"Butterfly" is pretty damned indefensible, though.

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 03:12 (twenty years ago)

The shot that launched a thousand LiveJournals.

― Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 03:20 (twenty years ago)

stupid thread

― billstevejim (billstevejim), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 03:25 (twenty years ago)

how could you call pinkerton indefensible? regardless of what you may think of them/us, a whole fucking generation of teenagers grew up with that record and fucking idolized it

cf. Billy Joel

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 03:27 (twenty years ago)

cf. Insane Clown Posse, while we're at it...

― John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 03:31 (twenty years ago)

BTW, before I get pilloried by the pro-weezer set, I am not conflating ICP and Weezer. I'm just saying that I require more than widespread adoration as a defense of a band.

― John Justen (johnjusten), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 03:34 (twenty years ago)

I require more than widespread adoration as a defense of a band

...indeed, for many that kind of widespread admiration's a preemptive negative, eh?

i love pinkerton because as self-pitying and teenage-egotist as the lyrics are, the music never gets hackneyed the way it did later. it's the ultimate better in reality than it is on paper album: maybe the pink spawned a lot of shitty bands, maybe in retrospect it looks different than it did at the time, but listening to the record i can't deny rivers' self-loathing adolescent mock-metal pop has its place a few notches below brian wilson's self-loathing adolescent mock-spector pop does, nahmean?

― swvl (vozick), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 04:46 (twenty years ago)

Rivers and Rolling Stone are right. Pinkerton fucking sucks. "Tired of Sex" sucks. "El Scorcho" really fucking sucks. Give me a billion "Hash Pipe"s and "Beverly Hills"es.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 04:57 (twenty years ago)

is this guy some sort of reverse Miccio?

Pinkerton in general is pretty great. "El Scorcho" is about the peak of 90s indie, "Tired of Sex" is new wave-y fun though the general sentiment is sorta bizarre for a Weezer song, "Pink Triangles" is about as good as a doomed-from-the-start love song can be, the rest of the tracks probably don't work so well on their own but combined they make for a sort of Pet Sounds or Every Picture Tells a Story kinda love narrative which is pretty fucking compelling.

― The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 05:03 (twenty years ago)

the search engine is rife with my enthusiasm re: this album, which may well be THE DEATH KNELL OF ROCK, in the sense that I don't think any rock album since has been better.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 05:09 (twenty years ago)

So, just for the sake of argument (and without going down the rathole of definitions)...

"El Scorcho" > "Smells Like Teen Spirit"

"El Scorcho" > "Loser"

"El Scorcho" > "Soon"

"El Scorcho" > "Fake Plastic Trees"

"El Scorcho" > "Violet"

"El Scorcho" > "Movin' On Up"

"El Scorcho" > "Rid Of Me"

etc etc Elephant 6 blah blah Superchunk yadda yadda Archers of Loaf and so on

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 05:28 (twenty years ago)

this record is shit

― kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 05:48 (twenty years ago)

this record is fantastic

― Sean M (Sean M), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 06:59 (twenty years ago)

This album is so good. Anybody who doesn't like it should be beaten to their knees with a five dozen copies of Rolling Stone magazine.

― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 09:48 (twenty years ago)

The only good emo album ever. The only non-incredibly-godawful emo album ever.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 11:09 (twenty years ago)

Jimmy Eat World's Clarity is actually pretty great, to the good-order side of Pinkerton's neutral-chaos.

― Sean M (Sean M), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 11:10 (twenty years ago)

Yeah those are the only two really.

― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

Oh wait - The Anniversary - Designing A Nervous Breakdown is classic too. Some days i'd take it over Pinkerton.

Forget the rest of their stuff though, it's god fucking awful.

― Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 12:02 (twenty years ago)

Revionism at its finest. The album went from being loathed by the intelligentsia, to being resurrected, and now it's under fire again.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

It's clearly the best thing in their catalog, and I don't even like them. No need to defend yrself, JD (hey dude!).

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 12:31 (twenty years ago)

Pinkerton = Emo as we know it.

Do the math. Doesn't matter how good or bad it is but the freaking legacy... it's not worth it. EMO!!! We shouldn't have it and Pinkerton set a lot of it. Damn You Pinkerton!!!!!

― elgolfo (elgolfo), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

criticizing an album because similar albums are bad: dud.

― Sean M (Sean M), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

Is there any successful album that can't be accused of inspiring crap?

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

EMOISM! *explodes*

― Ian Riese-Moraine's exploding hamster zeppelin! (Eastern Mantra), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 15:06 (twenty years ago)

The Good Dr. Bill says: "'El Scorcho' is about the peak of 90s indie"

And in what universe is this even remotely true?

Beyond the fact that Weezer is about as "indie" as Shania Twain, "El Scorcho" is a half-assed toss-off that can't compare to about a million "indie" songs released that decade. It scores some points with the ECW reference, and the chorus is nice, but otherwise it embodies two of Weezer's most common traits, laziness and a contempt for their audience.

― garrett, Wednesday, 1 June 2005 17:03 (twenty years ago)

Is it bad to say the "Pinkerton" is my favorite album of all time? it has even beating out "Magical Mystery Tour"

I made a list last your of my favorite albums ever and that was at the top spot and will never be repositioned.

And it's weird because I hate EMO music.

― Michael Costello (MichaelCostello1), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 17:06 (twenty years ago)

I don't think it quite beats the Blue Album but it is very different. Definitely not a dud by any stretch of the imagination. And I like "Butterfly".

― Nick H (Nick H), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 17:41 (twenty years ago)

In '96, Weezer were plenty indie. And for mee, it's got that sort of fantastically loose, ramshackle feel of Pavement and Beck but with a legitimate emotional connection as well. Hence, about the peak of 90s indie.

― The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 17:48 (twenty years ago)

Weezer were never indie. Weezer could have spent their entire career on Drag City and they still wouldn't be indie.

And what does "legitimately emotional" even mean? As if Pavement (never really liked Beck so can't say anything there) didn't invite emotional connection.

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

I've never knowingly listened to Pinkerton, but this thread makes it sound great.

laziness and a contempt for their audience

These are two of my favourite qualities ever.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

xpost not that indiehood is relevant to whether Pinkerton is any good.

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

I have a theory that whether you loved/hated
the movie adaptation of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory"
is a good predictor of whether you loved/hated "Pinkerton",
which curiously both Roald Dahl and Rivers Cuomo publicly
despised.
Please confirm/deny if this applies to you.

― HRhufnpuff, Wednesday, 1 June 2005 19:44 (twenty years ago)

dude zack, you need to fucking GROW UP and admit that the blue album is great.

you heard me.

― peter smith (plsmith), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

And what does "legitimately emotional" even mean? As if Pavement (never really liked Beck so can't say anything there) didn't invite emotional connection.

Not on the same level, certainly. Pavement always masked their songs--though some of their songs are fairly emotionally moving ("In the Mouth a Desert," "Grounded"--probably my two favorites of theirs, actually), it's far more as a result of the gorgeousness of the music than the direct connection of the lyrics, which I don't think they ever had (and definitely not like Weezer did).

― The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

probably better than their best-of album, when it eventually comes out, though not necessarily. definitely better than any other album they've done, or ever will do. can't fathom why anybody would think otherwise.

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 1 June 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

better than any pavement or beck album too. and probably better than any emo album, yeah, though i haven't played dag nasty's *field day* for a few years.

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

all of watery, domestic is lyrically emotionally moving. pavement may be couched in reference/gentle irony, but i think theyre totally emotional. theyre not direct/frantic/immature/anxious in the way that rivers cuomo was, esp on pinkerton, but i feel like both of those approaches are entirely intentional. thats one thing that is annoying about negative criticism of weezer; nobody seems to give weezer credit for understanding where they succeeded in making their first two albums. i admit freely that they lost their edge in a big way after two albums, but the first two are pretty flawlessly made/executed.

alright. earnest wednesday is done.

― peter smith (plsmith), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

oh it's better than Field Day, dude. Trust me.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

like modest mouse, i think this album only appeals to people younger than me (mr. eddy excepted; I'm assuming he's not younger than me) for some reason.

― kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:08 (twenty years ago)

Well, Frank Kogan is even older than me, for whatever it's worth, and I believe it's the only Weezer album he's ever loved as well.

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:10 (twenty years ago)

Pavement always masked their songs--though some of their songs are fairly emotionally moving ("In the Mouth a Desert," "Grounded"--probably my two favorites of theirs, actually), it's far more as a result of the gorgeousness of the music than the direct connection of the lyrics

K, two things:

1) I at least connect with a like "so drunk in the august sun/and you're the kind of girl i like/because you're empty, and i'm empty/and you can never quarantine the past" (as well as a ton of others, because bluntness != evocativeness) on a "genuinely emotional" level; and

2) Are you placing lyric-based emotional resonance above music-based emotional resonance? Because I can't agree with that at all.

And Pete...um...well...er...you need to admit that The Birthday Party is great! Jerk!

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:11 (twenty years ago)

you might be right, kyle. i was born in 1982, which is probably the best year for weezer lovership.

― peter smith (plsmith), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

says you

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)

leave the capitol! exit th[at] roman shell!

― peter smith (plsmith), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:15 (twenty years ago)

i'm goin i'm goin

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:16 (twenty years ago)

>i think this album only appeals to people younger than me (mr. eddy excepted; I'm assuming he's not younger than me) for some reason. <

Oddly, I'd say that, in my experience, this applies more to all of Weezer's OTHER albums (especially the first one, which is okay -- I still have my copy in the auxilary shelves up at the top of the hall closet, I'm pretty sure; its singles were catchy enough -- but I've never understood what people think was great about it. I'll probably hunt around for my copy and sell it if/when a best-of ever comes out.)

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:17 (twenty years ago)

what did you think of the first album when it first came out, chuck?

― peter smith (plsmith), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:20 (twenty years ago)

Sounded pretty average to me, to be honest, until the singles had hit and they sort of stuck me, and especially until I went back to it after Pinkerton blew me away. Didn't hate it as much as a lot of hit alt-rock at the time, but big deal. Was kind of annoyed by "Buddy Holly" and especially its dumb Happy Days video. Liked "The Sweater Song" a lot more, and still do. Still don't think "Say It Ain't So" was catchy enough to be a hit, but I didn't mind it. After Pinkerton came out, I went back and listened more, and kinda decided there were no particularly great songs on the album, but none I hated either. So it's a good record, but I don't know why anybody would get excited about it unless they were totally addicted to MTV when it came out. Which is fine, if they were, but like I said, it's also completely dependent on being the age where one would've been addicted to MTV.

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

Basically, Pinkerton has ten songs better than "The Sweater Song," and the first album has zero songs better than "The Sweater Song." (And none of the later albums have any songs as good as "The Sweater Song." Well, maybe "Hashpipe," I dunno.) So for me, picking a Weezer album is kind of a no-brainer.

― xhuxk, Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

three months pass...

was this any kind of hit in britain? at all? looking at amazon, i see it came out end of september in that foul year of out lord 1996. at that point i read both music papers cover to cover plus magazines, listened to indie on the radio, went to gigs, hung out with indie kids,and i literally have no recollection of seeing a review or of hearing a single. obv i knew 'buddy holly' and 'the sweater song'. and yet it seems to have been huge in the states.

― N_RQ, Monday, 12 September 2005 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

wasnt really huge, nrq. tanked commercially and critically and only became this huge sorta-cult hit slowly in the years between its release and weezer's warped tour reunion, where all the incubating pinkerton love hatched, and the beautiful bird of widespread recognition took flight.

― petesmith (plsmith), Monday, 12 September 2005 12:29 (nineteen years ago)

was that like when 'hashpipe' came out?

― N_)RQ, Monday, 12 September 2005 12:31 (nineteen years ago)

five years pass...

every song has deeply hilarious lyrics and is super easy to harmonize w/

― SUPER SAVINGS (Lamp), Thursday, 1 September 2011 23:23 (thirteen years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQ977u8Wuk

― Telephoneface (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 2 September 2011 00:25 (thirteen years ago)

three years pass...

Alone III: The Pinkerton Years is better than the actual album. Rivers' demos are so much more varied & interesting.

― when is the new Jim O'Rourke album coming out (spazzmatazz), Thursday, 5 February 2015 09:59 (ten years ago)

Just waiting on Alone IV: The Green Album/Maladroit Years. Let me know when that comes out.

― how's life, Thursday, 5 February 2015 10:51 (ten years ago)

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