Collabo's?

Jazz musicians would collaborate with anyone they admired, and often we get great records as a result. Why should rappers be singled out as forbidden from working with other musicians?

Jazz is different. I can see of Miles Davis wanted Stan Getz to do stuff with him (which would be cool) but that's Musicians, not rappers. I could see if Nas wanted Stan Getz (which would be cool) to do something. But why 2 to 9 rappers in one song?

I agree if rappers stopped with collabs and dropped the skits. You probably see a huge influx of rap Eps instead useless double albums. Which, btw, I completely support. As my frined once told me, 'I like about 20% of every Ludacris album'.

See what I mean?

But why 2 to 9 rappers in one song?
why not? are tracks only good if there is one mc on it? don't you like any rap songs with guests on them? do you like any rap groups? what do you think of e.g. the wu-tang clan? would they be better if there was only one person in the group?

And why is it okay if one jazz musician wants to work with another one? how is that different? what do you think about vocal duets?

The premise of this thread just doesn't make any sense to me. (I do agree that skits get annoying, though)

The premise, as far as I can tell, is not: collaborations are never good.

It is: Collaborations are not ALWAYS good.

There's a big difference. Michael is asking why collaborations are considered MANDATORY these days. He maybe overstates it, but I think he has a point.

I see what you're saying xhuxk, but Michael never actually says that. Instead he says things like "Why do rappers think they need more rappers in there songs? It's stupid." And he doesn't have a problem with jazz collaboration or even jazz/rap collabos (because having an extra instrument is better than having an extra voice?). Nothing he has said would seem to say that rap collaborations CAN be good. Maybe you're right, though, and he's just being X-TREME in the way he's stating it.

> But why 2 to 9 rappers in one song?

2, because: Run DMC, EPMD, Doug E Fresh and MC Ricky D, Public Enemy, etc.

9, because: "Scenario", "Proteck Ya Neck", "The Symphony", "Showdown", etc.

Simply put, chemistry between two or more MCs can add a LOT to a song, to the point where some of the greatest groups in rap are basically all about the interaction between two dope rhymers, and there's a whole subgenre of 'posse cuts' that take advantage of whole swarms of MCs passing the mic.

Which isn't to deny that a lot of collaborations aren't intended to give extra chances to a single to be a breakout by putting a currently hot rapper on an otherwise unextraordinary track (see: Snoop, Missy, Ludicris, Busta Rhymes) or alternatively to boost the career of an MC a particular company is trying to hype by putting him or her on a can't miss single by an already established name. This latter strategy is especially popular with remixes, since because the track is already a hit, it's the easiest way to make sure some no-name is on a hit single. A lot of this kind of stuff is artistically uninteresting and (of course) cynically conceived. But as long as every once in a while you get something like the remix of "Drop it Like It's Hot" that has Jay on it, I'm willing to risk it.

Nothing wrong with "wanting to work with musicians they admire". It's less cool when it's driven by cross marketing, like putting some brand name of barbeque sauce on a bag of potato chips. I get the feeling it has become MANDATORY because rappers think they would be just throwing away album sales if they weren't to include a cast of guests and give all their combined fans a reason to purchase.

(Sorry, no stereotyping indended by the barbeque chips example.)

Hey, these Jadakiss flavored potato chips are pretty good!

Rap groups are great. But that's a group. If it's an album be Wu Tang Clan then yeah I can see why there's so many people. But if the album is by Freeway and all it is is 25 song and 23 are Collaborations, why would that be a solo album? I wouldn't mind 3, maybe 5 collaborations on an album but c'mon.

Rappers take it too far. They think "Man, this track is hot, but it's not gonna sell so let's get Craig Mack." but then when that's done they say "Let's get Ludacris" and when that's recorded they say "Let's get Nelly Furtado to do the Chorus" and when that's done they say "Let's get Biz Markie to fart at the end of the Bridge."

They over-do it.

Oh, I posted as my brothers name insted of mine.

I did that post before this one (That One Guy).

Anyways, about the Jazz collaberations, they never over-did it.

and about the Vocal collaberations (like Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston), There ok in a sense. Like you would expect something like that from them. And again, Their albums aren't filled with featured guests. Maybe lots of producers, but no featured guests.

Plus they need people to collaborate with them, They can't write their own music, they can't play their own instruments. They need it.

Every jazz song ever made that isn't a solo is a collaboration. Good thing they don't "overdo" it.

When you listen to a Jazz album, you don't think "Man, that guy is fucking up Coltrane's shit."

As in rap, you think "Man, Twista is fucking up Jay-Z's shit"

You understand? It doesn't flow right with other music.

You aren't being very clear - are you against collaboration in rap in general, or merely when it sounds like crap or strikes you as a cynical marketing gimmick?

When you say X is fucking up Y's shit, do you mean that in a positive or negative way?

BTW, any rapper who is produced by someone else is also collaborating, and probably in a truer sense than when they bring on a guest MC or pop singer to provide a hook. Just as the leader of a jazz date is collaborating with all the members of the band (at least in small group settings with lots of improvisation - larger ensembles with greater compositional emphasis are more arguably the work of one person.)

"Truer" may not be the right word here. "In a sense closer to the sense that jazz musicians collaborate" is more what I mean.

Amyway, the reason I brought up jazz in the first place is because I think the tendency to play (or at least record) with anybody and everybody in most every concievable combination is one of the things hiphop has in common with jazz. An on air freestyle cypher is not much different from a live blowing date. Mixing things up keeps it interesting. I'm always at least intrigued when two more-or-less solo artists decide they mesh well enough to do a full-length together, like Redman/Method Man, Perceptionists, Raekwon/Ghostface, CMA, The A-Team. There's lots more examples.