Am I in the wrong here?

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Excerpts from an 'argument' I'm having on another board:

Generally when you say you 'own' something, you have it in some physical form, most of the times it was paid for. I always watch repeats of "Pulp Fiction" on IFC, Showtime, etc., but I don't own Pulp Fiction.

QUOTE
i don't. i own most of my music, but an MP3 is a helpful way to know whether i want to buy it or not.

"I don't have a problem with that. I would be a hypocrite if I did. I'm fine with mp3s as a means of discovering new music, previewing albums to see if they're worth it, etc. What I despise is that mp3s are becoming the new format. The standard. People are charging $10 for intangible data files that you can lose in 3 seconds. People downlaod a record from a torrent site in 2 minutes and suddenly they 'own' it. People download Bob Dylan's entire discography in 10 minutes and suddenly they're a huge Dylan afficionadao. That rare Boredomes EP is suddenly widespread, there is no hunt. There are no hours rummaging through used bins. Everything is at your fingertips. There is no vinyl hiss, there are no Cd skips, everything is 'perfect.'"

QUOTE(Doucheface @ Jun 5 2005, 07:02 PM)
I didn't. You're saying that looking for music and parading your knowledge infront of other people is better than the actual music itself. You feel threatened that people can find good music a lot quicker and easier than you could.

"What the fuck? Where do you get that from? My argument is that when everything imaginable is at your disposure, it's somehow less special. It holds less value. You can get in 1 second. Overload. What knowledge am I parading? I feel threatened? I don't even own anything considerably rare. I just despise the concept of downloading The Velvet Underground's Squeeze in 1 second, when people spend months, even years, looking for a copy. I'm jealous? Why would I be? I have broadband, if I wanted I could download everything I please. There no fun in that. There's nothing special about downloading that Human Switchboard record on soulseek. There's nothing special about downloading every David Bowie album in 5 minutes. Yes, the music is the most important thing, but there's something really great about that hunt. That wait. That 30 minute drive to the record store. In my opinion, it makes you appreciate it FAR MORE than if you downloading it in 3 minutes and then placing it amongst your other 30 GB of mp3s, most of which you've probably never gave much attention to."

QUOTE(Shitforbrains @ Jun 5 2005, 07:37 PM)
QUOTE(Doucheface @ Jun 5 2005, 07:02 PM)
I didn't. You're saying that looking for music and parading your knowledge infront of other people is better than the actual music itself. You feel threatened that people can find good music a lot quicker and easier than you could.

This is exactly the case.

The only legit arguments against mp3s are:
1. The sound quality isn't as good as CDs.
2. You're not supporting the band.

I've discovered 90% of the music I listen to now through mp3s.

"Didn't you read me say that I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH MP3s AS A MEANS OF DISCOVERING MUSIC, AND I WOULD BE A HYPOCRITE TO STATE OTHERWISE?!? You're missing my point entirely. I'm not opposed to mp3s as a a gateway to discoverung artists, I'm opposed to their seeming 'replacement' of all other media, as they aren't a tangible thing. It's a datafile on a machine. And, as I adressed before, Infinite Loop's argument is void because: 1. I'm not a hardcore record collector. 2. I download. 3. I'm a mere 17 years old, so people "finding music easier than I could" makes no fucking sense. 4. I don't 'parade' any 'knowledge' around. I have a blog, started it to share new songs I discovered, big fucking whoop. I chose to make it available for everyone, I could've made it friends only, yet I'm a "douche" and a "fag." Whatever.

Yes, I'm the fucking bad guy because music is quite special to me, and it's way more than something you can download in a few seconds and discard in the same amount of time if it doesn't tickle your fancy on first listen. Right."

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:13 (twenty years ago)

in years to come, no body will give a shit that mp3s arent/werent as good as cds.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:15 (twenty years ago)

The person in italics is crazy.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:17 (twenty years ago)

I'M NOT CRAZY DAMN YOU.

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:17 (twenty years ago)

Haha

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:21 (twenty years ago)

The person in italics is ~~crazy~~ a mere 17 years old

― fe zaffe (fezaffe), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:23 (twenty years ago)

Haha that makes it even crazier.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

Politely, I think you're wrong. I agree that downloading is changing the value of music, but I don't believe the difficulty of finding some music should be allowed to affect your relationship with it. I can see the pleasure of searching for rarities, but that still applies online. And in the end, anything that democratises pleasure is A Good Thing.

Imagine if everybody could own a Vermeer. Would it make the paintings less good? No, just less valuable in monetary terms. Yay for easy access.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

its gonna be singles all the way from here on out.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I like the way mp3s have dealt a blow to the album form. It needed it, cos once CDs became the norm everything got more bloated, more filler-packed.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:30 (twenty years ago)

yep. the three minute song cannot be beaten as a medium. i look forward to singles compendiums instead of bloated, filler-packed, impact-less BORING MIDDLE SECTION albums.

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

You were rather defensive and presumptuous, Brainwasher. His take, while learned and paranoid, has some merit. I think its a valid argument to say that you enjoy the experience of purchasing music in a tangible form, the social interaction and effort necessary to find old product, and you don't want to have that taken away from you.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

I don't agree with you Brainwasher but I think you've hit a nail on a head: there IS a lot of resentment that the months and years people spent searching for music are suddenly 'meaningless', I've seen it crop up a lot, rarely so candidly expressed. Pretty much everyone I encounter on slsk has a collection multiple times larger and more comprehensive than mine - who's to say they 'know' every track eh? WHY THOSE WHIPPERSNAPPERS! But pretty soon I realised that it doesn't matter - it doesn't affect MY enjoyment of my music at all how other people get theirs, and it actually helps me separate the ritualism of music fandom from the liking-the-music bits.

(Also of course whole NEW rituals and war stories will surface - I spent three months collecting enough German psych to finally get onto that DC++ hub, god it makes me appreciate it so much more etc etc.)

― Tom (Groke), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

I actually think the greatest thing about mp3s and the interweb is the effect it has had the explosion of mixes/mixtapes (plus the ease of trading live sets and bootlegs can't be underestimated.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

the "you're jealous of the kids"/"dude, I'm 17" is pretty awesome.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)

Haha I just read that part and it cracked me up.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)

wait, which one is Brainwasher??? I assumed it was the non-italics. Gah.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

Haha no it's apparently the italics.

― I made the same mistake (Alex in SF), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

some mod edit the thread and put 'I'm the one in italics' in parentheses.

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

huh? citizen=brainwasher?

― rizzx (rizzx), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:49 (twenty years ago)

Yes, the Brainwasher is Citizen_Insane. How telling.

― Bow House (Twilight), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

I just assumed you were Mr. Digital Age because you're always dropping yousendits on us, but I get it now.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

oh man. when 2 boards intertwine. i thought nobody knew of each's existence

really, somehow i did

― rizzx (rizzx), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

What board was this from?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)

www.creed.com/msgboard

― rizzx (rizzx), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

I love me some Creed.

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

this discussion is over right?

― rizzx (rizzx), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

NO. Someone must agree with me. I feel like I'm in 1984 or something.

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Sunday, 5 June 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

While I personally would be depressed if the tangibility element was not available to me, I think that's a dsytopian fantasy that's not going to occur any time soon. There's too much shit out there for it all to evaporate quite yet.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:01 (twenty years ago)

dystopian, rather.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

I spent three months collecting enough German psych to finally get onto that DC++ hub,

Ol' Warez BBS/VX BBS behavior, codified now so it migrates to everything digital.

How much is fakeware in the nets?

― George Smith, Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

true, there is simply too much music to buy everything. I tend to buy the obscure shit quicker that some big label album and I try to buy every album I like during the year. But with the internet at your fingertips with it's countless review sites it's virtually impossible for me to withstand the powers of downloading.

and why would i? imagine a world without the internet now, we would get stuck at Coldplay probably

― rizzx (rizzx), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I like the way mp3s have dealt a blow to the album form. It needed it, cos once CDs became the norm everything got more bloated, more filler-packed.

-- Jetlag Willy (noodle_vagu...), June 5th, 2005

Hence the need for iTunes 'exclusives', 'bonus tracks' and such to fill that record company penny-pinching void (IMO). Completism costs and instead of 70 mins at a time there's a whole HD to fill!

If mp3 shopping & downloading does totally replace hard copies then I think we'll all have been had, again.

― fandango (fandango), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

imagine a world without the internet now

Hold that thought.

― George Smith, Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:08 (twenty years ago)

But, by the same token, with such accessibility and such fast speeds, you can very easily download everything. Overload, much?

I'm not saying refrain from downloading, that's silly. As miccio said, I'm always providing you guys with YSIs and stuff. But I think that downloading makes us take things for granted, because they're so easy to get. What's wrong with a little struggle?

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:10 (twenty years ago)

Feh on struggle.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

xpost, arent we already being had? were just being resold old music on a new medium, once again. great new medium, now wheres all the brilliant brand new frontier of music??

― titchyschneider (titchyschneider), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

What's wrong with a little struggle?

Then send a computer virus.

― George Smith, Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

x post

There've been doomy predictions about the Internet's effect on books and print media for a few years, but they have too many advantages to disappear. I figure the same applies to mp3 vs tangible music.

I think Completists are kind of to blame for their own exploitation. I realised this at 17 when I found myself one morning with a brutal hangover riding the bus to a nearby town to a pick up a Marillion import consisting of music I mostly already owned.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)

what's wrong with a little luxury with these rather high pricings of cd's

― rizzx (rizzx), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)

I wouldn't be pissed off at someone downloading an incredibly rare recording in seconds because if you really value the actual medium, then you're searching it out. If you really value the music, then it's not going to be diminished through ubiquity. I'm much more likely these days to feel disgusted whenever I find myself coveting something more for its rarity than the actual substance.

― mike h. (mike h.), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

But when all you have is luxury, the it's not really luxury is it? What I'm basically saying is YOU YOUNG'NS ARE SPOILED WITH YOUR INTERWEBS ARE SHARESEEKS.

― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:15 (twenty years ago)

Verdammte lotus-eaters. I abhor this dilatory sloth.

― George Smith, Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:17 (twenty years ago)

I think the technological changes here might in a decade maybe lead down the road to some special digital format that combines elements of pro-audio quality (DVD-A, SACD etc) and traditional format extras (artwork, notes, credits) in some way that is universally compatible with HD devices (TV, iPod etc). For individual tracks and collections (albums).

Hopefully there will be massive improvements in HD reliabity before this happens though. I'm sticking to hard copies & paranoid back ups of the music I treasure before we get to that stage.

― fandango (fandango), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:18 (twenty years ago)

You're right about luxury not being compatible with ubiquity, but I guess new luxuries come along. Having a Television was a luxury at one time.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:18 (twenty years ago)

special digital (downloadable) format, that is.

mp3 shopping & downloading does totally replace hard copies I suppose it already has for out-of-print music that may never come back into print now. £30 for a CD/Vinyl of FUSE 'Dimension Intrusion' vs. Bleep.com? :-/

― fandango (fandango), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:21 (twenty years ago)

i fear the day i can't hold a new cd though

xpost

― rizzx (rizzx), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:22 (twenty years ago)

by that time you'll think everything's shit anyhow.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

"What's that? Kaiser Chiefs XVI is internet only? Good for them!"

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

Music has been easily reproducible for years, due to home taping and such. The only reason some things have not been ubiquitous is either because there's an actual lack of demand, or there has been an artificial sense of rarity added by the market in lieu of a widespread distribution system like the internet.

I find it hilarious that people have been duplicating their collecting tendencies online. I know people who would only purchase a full album online, or only download a full album. Around college campuses there are people with copies of every album ever done by an artist, even the crap ones, and none of it gets listened to. I'm hoping that making music readily available eventually gets rid of this tendency as it's the worst sort of compulsive behavior.

― mike h. (mike h.), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:26 (twenty years ago)

I like how people get really possessive about music they've probably stolen, too. "I'm not sharing my precious files unless you give me all of yours etc." It's amazing just how asshole-esque human beings can be.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:31 (twenty years ago)

"I'm not sharing my precious files unless you give me all of yours etc." It's amazing just how asshole-esque human beings can be.

Warez board operators and VXers were the apotheosis of asshole practice. It is only natural that many would inherit and honor their traditions.

― George Smith, Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

My beef with mp3s is that they quality is noticeable, at least to me; even AAC. I download mp3'd albums to preview them, but I always get the sense that I'm missing something, however insignificant. I want the whole damn thing. This all came to my mind when I started ripping my CDs losslessly, after using 192kbs AAC. I tried out Ryan Adam's "Hotel Chelsea Nights" in both formats, and the lossless won because I could hear the wurlitzer fading out all the way. That was enough for me to be audiophilic (within monetary reason, of course) about making digital copies.

Hopefully, once broadband gets faster and cheaper, and once hard drives get bigger, more stable, and cheaper, then lossy formats won't be as ubiquitous.

― shanecavanaugh (shanecavanaugh), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:40 (twenty years ago)

I am waiting for the mossy formats to come out. That will be more like my old record collection, finally. Who wants mossless music?

― George Smith, Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:43 (twenty years ago)

xpost - That is my hope too, that eventually quality improves from CD's. It's only due to bandwidth that people aren't sharing .wav's right now.

However, stalling through apathy (and public cloth-eared-ness) at the technological stage of mp3's AND the phasing out of Vinyl/CD/DVDA/SACD would be a disaster. But then some people probably say the same about Vinyl > CD

― fandango (fandango), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:47 (twenty years ago)

mp3's as a format for the next few decades would be a weird combination of progression and regression in technology.

― fandango (fandango), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:48 (twenty years ago)

it's time to start uploading and downloading wavs people.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:54 (twenty years ago)

seriously, mp3 will probably die out itself within the next 5 years, as broadband speed x cheapness = improved practicality of un-or less- compressed digital audio.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:56 (twenty years ago)

I'm waiting for that damn MPEG4 lossless to come out. That'll hold us over till the quantum or cellular drives or whatever.

― shanecavanaugh (shanecavanaugh), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:57 (twenty years ago)

Or the nuclear war that sends us back to the dark ages, and the only way we can share music is through traveling minstrels. I'm hoping for that more than the end of lossy formats.

― shanecavanaugh (shanecavanaugh), Sunday, 5 June 2005 20:59 (twenty years ago)

You're weird, Sir.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Sunday, 5 June 2005 21:00 (twenty years ago)

It's only due to bandwidth that people aren't sharing .wav's right now.

Er. And too-small hard drives. Doh.

What we need more of, is Science!

― fandango (fandango), Sunday, 5 June 2005 21:07 (twenty years ago)

There is no vinyl hiss, there are no Cd skips, everything is 'perfect.

this the best part, the Vinylist argument now used in regard to CDs to MP3s. beautiful.

― Leonard Thompson (Grodd), Sunday, 5 June 2005 22:12 (twenty years ago)

Or the nuclear war that sends us back to the dark ages, and the only way we can share music is through traveling minstrels. I'm hoping for that more than the end of lossy formats.

Handcranked record players will still work.

The problem with lossy formats is that they've spread to human intellectual endeavors. Everyone I know infatuated with technology seems to have lossy compression. Bigger hard drives won't solve the problem. They will only store greater numbers of lossy files, not smaller numbers of bigger brains.

― George Smith, Sunday, 5 June 2005 22:16 (twenty years ago)

I don't cherish CD skips one bit, compared to vinyl hiss & crackle they are infintely more annoying.

They at least led to experiments with new kinds of dissonant noise from Oval & the whole clicks n' cuts crowd. But UNintentionas CD skipping = eternally painful.

I think that part of Brainwasher's comment was probably fairly off-the-cuff and not mean in that sense really. Especially as many mp3's are far from perfect. MMM 128kbps ... smushy :-P

― fandango (fandango), Sunday, 5 June 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

Handcranked record players will still work.

Oh yeah. Then we'd have to be thankful for the vinylists.

― shanecavanaugh (shanecavanaugh), Sunday, 5 June 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

its a complete myth that everything is now suddenly available! true, a hell of a lot more is now available, but its still difficult to find a lot of things im looking for, theyve never popped up on p2p, which means ebay, which is great, but you have to wait for when/if things arrive

― charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 6 June 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

I just bought the 'Steppers Delight' EP by Smith & Mighty on 12" online after failing to find an mp3 anywhere.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 6 June 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

Don't you guys like packaging? It's half (well, maybe 1/4) the joy of getting something new and perusing the art, etc. That's my primary reason for not downloading everything.

I've always thought that anyone who thinks they have a "big" music collection that consists of mainly CD-Rs and mp3s as being the equivalent of having lots of photocopies of books and thinking it's a fine library.

― Viz (Viz), Monday, 6 June 2005 15:28 (twenty years ago)

Personally i take a lot of pride in my cd's and records, spending a lot of money on them too. Understandably it annoys me when my friends tell me theyve "got" new albums, even before they are released and have no intention of ever buying them in tangible form. If there was any justice a super virus would wipe out everybodys illegally downloaded mp3's.

Brainwasher, i think you're right but i'm not suprised people on the internet disagree with you. Go down your independent record stores and ask the same question and you'll get all the reassurance you need.

― dmun drive-in (dmun), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

and all their legally downloaded mp3's.

(maybe even melting their hard drives)

― dmun drive-in (dmun), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

What a lovely magnanimous person you are, dumb.

― Jetlag Willy (noodle vague), Monday, 6 June 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

I paid into the industry for years now I get free music.
Just smell the glove.

― peter d (peter dee), Monday, 6 June 2005 21:45 (twenty years ago)

If you want to "earn" your mp3 collection, try to build up a 10,000 strong mp3 collection...over a tempermental 56k modem...from snotnoses who have tempermental 56k modems.
Why do you think I got so deeply involved in all the CDRGo projects. Snailmail was quicker!

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 01:50 (twenty years ago)

i think the issue of space is not really dealt with. the fact of the matter is, records and cds take up a lot of room. any record or cd i buy now, i mp3 it immediately, and then it goes off home to my parents. i have about 10 cds with me, theyll go home next time i go home as well

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 10:48 (twenty years ago)

I'd like to hang my records on my wall, as works of art - perhaps with the records still inside the sleeves. What's the point of the art if it's not going to be on prominent display once you've bought it? I think physics might oppose this plan to a fair extent. Science must go.

CD packaging is obv. less desirable because it's that much smaller. CDs as good as 'master' back-ups but I am utterly in love with the idea of music being 'always there but never seen' and want to keep moving in that direction.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 10:54 (twenty years ago)

How is using P2P and downloading not a 'struggle'? If you want to only listen to obvious or fashionable stuff it's ok, but try finding even major songs by older blues, country, r&b, jazz or folk artists on there. You're not going to find shit. We're a very long way from "everything" being available.

― Keith C (kcraw916), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

god i find downloading *much* harder than going to record shops. i don't know where to start, and that goes for almost *all* of my friends and co-workers. the crazy world of slskisn't *that* big.

People download Bob Dylan's entire discography in 10 minutes and suddenly they're a huge Dylan afficionadao. That rare Boredomes EP is suddenly widespread, there is no hunt. There are no hours rummaging through used bins. Everything is at your fingertips. There is no vinyl hiss, there are no Cd skips, everything is 'perfect.'"

i think this is insane though. yeah, cd skips are so REAL...!!!

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

haha, it doesnt make sense anyway, things that are out of print that have become available (by people mp3ing them themselves), mp3 the vinyl hiss right along with the music. most of my mp3s have vinyl hiss, because i mp3d them from my vinyl!

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

i like the old 'flange' sound of bad mp3s. real soulful and authentic.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

i like cocaine

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

i like early mornings, when it's sunny.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 13:33 (twenty years ago)

i like short shorts

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 13:33 (twenty years ago)

ooh i like it (jonny l)
ooh i like it (w.i.t)

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

i like you

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

i like derailing a thread

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

i like chair

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 7 June 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

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