he said "gorgeously sublime" and in my head i heard [insert sound here]

[ie MY answer not "the" answer: i imagine this will be difft for everyone] [if anyone responds]

i'm very happy you're posting on ilm again!

i think i have an answer but i'm not ready to write it down. gonna sleep on it.

1. keyboard of some type, might narrow it down to vintage synth
2. judee sill's eponymous album, which I was just listening to
3. the sounds that absolutely "send me" tend to be lush, watery, and very harmonious. guitar can only take me so far, with very few exceptions(judee sill being one obv.) and there's lots of dance/pop/beat driven music that's equally exhilirating but it wouldn't usually occur to me to use those descriptors(thought of one- Felix da Housecat's "Ready to Wear" perhaps that will help flesh out my "vision")

Anyway what I am askin is THIS: if soneone said to you "This song/record/download is GORGEOUSLY SUBLIME"
i. what sounds or instruments or characteristics would YOU imagine it had?

I imagine hearts in ecstasy meeting under a canopy of shimmering light in translucent cascades, angels tear waterfalls landing in tiny perfect droplets on paper-thin, exquisitely delicate silver cymbals, frissoning harmonics that cause tender ripples to the soul in sublime empathy with no will; I imagine sunlight, impossible happiness, the song of the heavens made on glass, crystals, and undulating gossamer wings. Why?

monk playing a ballad like he's tap-dancing through a minefield

miles davis muted & thoughtful on "My Funny Valentine" or pursuing abstract beauty propelled by Tony Williams' cymbals in the mid 60s

gal costa singing "baby" w/caetano veloso

stuff like that

Minnie Riperton dueting with Chet Baker over "Autobahn"-era Kraftwerk.

id like to address the term in this question. ive been reading nothing but edmund burke and nietzsche for the last six weeks [required for the class "rock and roll sublime"], so i am having issues with the phrase "gorgeously sublime". according to them, the sublime isnt supposed to be gorgeous or beautiful; the phrase is an oxymoron.

here is burke's book which maps out this argument:

http://www.bartleby.com/24/2/

sub·lime    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (s-blm)
adj.
Characterized by nobility; majestic.

Of high spiritual, moral, or intellectual worth.

Not to be excelled; supreme.

Inspiring awe; impressive.

Archaic. Raised aloft; set high.

Obsolete. Of lofty appearance or bearing; haughty: “not terrible,/That I should fear... /But solemn and sublime” (John Milton).

"The ideas of the sublime and the beautiful stand on foundations so different, that it is hard, I had almost said impossible, to think of reconciling them in the same subject, without considerably lessening the effect of the one or the other upon the passions" [Burke, On the Sublime , ed. J. T. Bolton. 113-114]

Fuck does he know?

(also U&K if we're talking reading lists: francis spufford, "I may be some time: ice & the english imagination".)

"Gorgeously sublime" makes me think of the introduction to Kitchens of Distinction's "Drive That Fast".

haha in the spufford book when the young burke - who some* say is the first ROCK CRITIC - actually first tosses the word sublime into his own writing, isn't he describing his own feeling when the river liffey flooded and his friends' houses on the other side were all submerged and stuff and they had to flee while he sat warm as toast a-chucklin!! while all the while admiring the scary excellent flood!!?

anyway he wz clearly thinkin abt the freaky trigger team at glasto 2005

*ie i think i once did on ilm

(which is an elaborate way of saying: part of burke's definition of the sublime is that it involves the VICARIOUS ENJOYMENT of these awesome overpowering apparently not-enjoyable things)

(plus as alex says, burke's defn is NOT the only one - tho i agree an echo of it unavoidably feeds into subsequent usage)

(i like to imagine him hearing the kitchens of distinction on his deathbed and shouting "what i fool i've been!! consign everything i've written for the last 50 years to the flames and download the entire one little indian back cat onto my georgian i-pod as i expire!! ah me!!"

I imagine something wall-of-sound kind of catchy with waves of with shoegaze guitar and an italo synth bassline.

...like a cross between The Ronettes, Slowdive and early Pet Shop Boys.

This thread made me gay.

I'm Gay Now. Thanks, Mark S.

The S. stands for Sublime.

You are gay as in happy.

I am Ned R. as in ridiculous.

We are love.

Ned, You are one cooky dude.

It's good enough for me.

gorgoeously sublime

brings to mind some Spacemen 3 (esp Dreamweapon), some Spiritualized (esp Lazer Guided Melodies), some Sundial (esp Acid Yantra), some Amon Duul II.

I can't describe what those things have in common, I suppose it's a trance-like Bolero-style sound. They made me want to sink into pillows and *transcend*.

ok sorry for delay!!

so i glommed onto alex's excellent phrase bcz it did something a bit un-alex, which is to say, it invoked subtle layered complexity!!

(i'm not saying he's not a subtle layered complex kinda guy - cz we all are here on ilx - i'm just saying that cz his well-honed and very funny shtick leans more towards over-the-top 2D raging cartoon, this phrase jumped out)

maria says it's an oxymoron: but oxymoron doesn't mean "self-contradicting phrase you therefore mustn't use", it means "phrase which derives its poetic expressivity from its apparent contradictions"

gorgeous: rich, lush, sensuous
sublime: see above, variously defined

the first objective correlative example i thought of cozen already grabbed and tagged, on another thread: viz METAL MACHINE MUSIC --- on the one hand, the endless pretty runs and twirls and flourishes within a single dense chord; on the other, its story and its structure, so daunting --- that its's a fuck-off manipulative elitist noise gesture, that "lou fooled the fans with this one", that it has no beginning, middle or end, but just stands there, how much do you need to listen to? all of it many times, or a little bit once? it just MOCKS all yr usual watchamacall strategies of address ---- a crappy rock-star game which is, at the same time, ENDLESSLY generous, with melody especially; it's just an infinite waterfall of bright-metal tonal tunes, except that - bcz it's so sensitive to volume played at, and where yr standing in the acoustic space of yr own room - it's quite possible that you'll never hear the same passage twice, or unravel the polyphony into the same patterns twice

the second example kind of works the opposite way: PiL's RADIO FOUR - a wall-to-wall carpeting of synth, no voice, the most straightforward harmonic structure, no "development", not much more than a loop of chords ---- but bcz of who it is not singing, and the history he's just jumped out of, and the record this is part of (obv i mean the actual real 12"s-in-a-tin METAL BOX, the vinyl version is i'm sad to say KEY in both these examples), you can't help but worriedly project stuff onto the deliberately minimalist blankness (is it satire; is it a punky joke?; an anti-punk joke?; it it just what it seems, and what might this be anyway? it sounds lovelier by the second but the loveliness seems evermore threatening ---- but isn't that just my paranoia, there's NOTHING here to decode as threat, the things that niggle are the things that are missing etc etc)

and MINIMALIST is really not the right word: bcz as you grasp that there's not much maybe to hear in the tune or the chords, you become more and more attuned to the sheer plush depth of the sound, as if to say, if ONLY we lived in a world where i wouldn't need to and wouldn't be ABLE to discover all this other stuff to dredge up from my own worries and slurtch onto this, if ONLY we lived in a world where we could just listen to this song for what it "is in itself"

I would think Luciano's mix of "Teen Angst".

"(Love Is) What I Got"

answer i. ii. AND iii or you will lose user privs

i. what sounds or instruments or characteristics would YOU imagine it had?

sublime = subtle, subconcious. The music would be very gauzed and treated, EQ'd down on the HIs/LOs or filtered into MIDs only. Instruments wouldn't matter so much as the atmosphere is barely there. The gorgeous aspect would probably tie into some sort of major I/V balance similar to http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/recordare/BaGoAvMa-excerpt.gif

ii. what record best fits this phrase, according to YOU?

"Ave Maria" by Labradford w/ Brian Eno

iii. why is THIS sublime but other things you like just good, maybe

Production values... more obvious musics. But taking away the emphasis on production, sublime might signify an odd chord change or "out"-phrase that I might not pick up on for a least a dozen listens. The gorgeousness would apply more to the usage rather the overall piece though in that case.

(actually gygax! reminded me of something i meant to say = i notice "sublime" has kinda increasingly merged with "subliminal" in recent years ---- they didn't USED to cross over much at all, viz there's nothing much subliminal abt a thunderstorm or a cataract or a mighty stormy ocean, but now they clearly do)

I take credit for the gross misinterpretation.

The swirling chorus of Abba's "Dancing Queen" is pretty grand and magestic. A sweeping crescendo or a sudden (or multiple) well-placed modulations can produce that "hair-standing-up-on-the-back-of-the-neck" affect.

"What I Got"

It was funnier at 5:15 EST.

Whaddya mean funny? I'm being honest! Somebody says a song is gorgeously sublime I hear "What I Got," testy.

sublime was a good rapper

Scroll up, weiner-oscillator.

were you calling dibs on that word association?

wait, did you just admit that you hate women?

contestants who fail to answer i. ii. AND iii will be automatically be nominated for eviction from the sublime sister house

miccio will you come to the diary room please?

I can't answer i, ii and iii because gorgeously sublime is an oxymoron. At least if you heard Maria going on about the sublime while up in philly a few weeks ago. It just makes me think of "What I Got" (Though actually "Santeria" is probably more gorgeous even if "What I Got" is more gorgeously Sublime).

Whuzz the diary room?

'jailhouse' is best

whatever dudes, im sticking with burke and the 18th century. you can go on with your hybridity and shit but deep down, you know you're a sad sick farce.

Oxymoron
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

An oxymoron (plural "oxymora") (noun) is a figure of speech that combines two normally contradictory terms (e.g. "deafening silence"). Oxymoron is a Greek term derived from oxy ("sharp") and moros ("dull"). Oxymora are a proper subset of the expressions called contradiction in terms. What distinguishes oxymora from other paradoxes and contradictions is that they are used intentionally, for rhetorical effect, and the contradiction is only apparent, as the combination of terms provides a novel expression of some concept.

courtest of the OED:

[< post-classical Latin oxymoron figure of speech in which a pair of opposed or markedly contradictory terms are placed in conjunction for emphasis (5th cent.; also oxymorum) < ancient Greek {olenis}{xi}{upsilon}- OXY-1 + {mu}{omega}{rho}{goacu}{fsigma} dull, stupid, foolish (see MORON n.2).
The Greek form {olenis}{xi}{guacu}{mu}{omega}{rho}{omicron}{nu} does not appear to be recorded in extant Greek sources.]

1. Rhetoric. A figure of speech in which a pair of opposed or markedly contradictory terms are placed in conjunction for emphasis.

[1640 E. REYNOLDS Treat. Passions xvii. 186 It was a bold but true {olenis}{xi}{guacu}{mu}{omega}{rho}{omicron}{nu} of Seneca. Mortibus vivimus.] 1657 J. SMITH Myst. Rhetorique 121 Oxymoron, {olenis}{xi}{guacu}{mu}{omega}{rho}{omicron}{nu}, Acutifatuum aut stulte acutum, subtilly foolish. a1677 I. BARROW Several Serm. Evil-speaking (1678) ii. 59 Some elegant figures..lofty Hyperbole's, Paronomasies, Oxymorons..lie very near upon the confines of jocularity. 1792 W. ROBERTS Looker-on No. 30 (1794) I. 427 These contradictory gentlemen..were thus pressed together in a forced kind of union, like the figure oxymoron. 1850 C. ANTHON in Cicero De Senectute 164 In giving sensim its strict literal meaning, we will perceive here both an alliteration and oxymoron, the idea being, in fact, this: ‘life grows old so gradually that we perceive it, and yet do not perceive it.’ 1890 Q. Rev. 160 289 Voltaire..we might call, by an oxymoron which has plenty of truth in it, an ‘Epicurean pessimist’. 1930 Speculum 5 63 Like other mediaeval poets Joseph pushes oxymoron to a stage where it borders on the absurd. 1982 T. HAMILTON Robert Lovell xx. 370 Many of the sonnets are recognizably by Robert Lovell; they employ his verbal tricks{em}his triple adjectives, his gnomic oxymorons.

2. More generally: a contradiction in terms.

1902 World's by Eyewitness 206 The Boer set free from the discipline of the commando is a loafer of loafers, though, it is true, a living oxymoron in his activity and resource in the loafing game. 1989 Texas Monthly Oct. 32/2 ‘Healthful’ and ‘Mexican food’ need not be an oxymoron. This out-of-the-way tortilla factory and restaurant uses organic grains and natural chicken and beef in its recipes and low-cholesterol canola oil for frying. 1993 Guardian 28 Aug. 22/5 This opened up an oxymoron too dreadful to contemplate: affordable caviar.

an educational ILX post!

THATS SOME GOOD KNOWLEDGIN'

gon get my learn on!

the examples given in the OED's (2) belong in (1)

it is such a wack excuse for a dictionary

LeTigre Apparel

an American classic… back again for the very first time.

From its inception in 1977, Le Tigre clothing was irreverently conceived as the American alternative to France's reptile (find our beast on Le Tigre shirts). Known for brilliant colors and signature stripes, Le Tigre clothing, especially Le Tigre shirts, helped solidify the polo shirts place as a must-have in everyone's closet.

"irreverently conceived"

ha! thats great.

Vilkacis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

In Latvian mythology, a Vilkacis ("wolf eyes") was a type of violent monster that was originally a person. It was similar to a werewolf. Occasionally, a vilkacis brought treasure or was otherwise beneficial.

Alternative: Vilkatas, Vilkatis

i thought this wz an interesting topic for a thread :(

good grief.

Incidentally, the absolute definition of "gorgeously sublime" (bite me, Edmund Burke you pompous cock jockey!) is "Those Eyes, That Mouth" by the Cocteau Twins.

but alex what do YOU mean by sublime?

(don't cut and paste from a dictionary!!)

Yeesh, I was hoping someone would've said I was OTM by now on my KoD blurb but instead there's still debate on the definition of "gorgeously sublime"? Yikes. Definitions need room to expand in order to be applied in actuality, people -- they cannot be constricted in lexicons! It goes against the evolution of etymology!

there was a fatwa against
i. all poetry ever, and
ii. alex's new status as my favourite poet!!

I'm not in the bidness of quibbling with conventional dictionary definitions, thus I do not think the exression "gorgeously sublime" is oxymoronic at all. That said, suggesting that something is sublime might render the adjective "gorgeously" rather unnecessary and superfluous, so that might be my crime. Sue me.

exPression

:( my thread is making everyone huffy and pedantic

YOUR thread? please. hmmph. bah.

Alls I know is, I finally got my daughter to bed. The wife is out with some colleagues, and I just opened my third beer of the evening, so life is -- temporarily at least -- gorgeously sublime. So go rock out, Mark S.!

yay!

it is everyone's thread!!

ihttp://www.healthecommunities.org/images/hands.jpg

And this is what I'm drinkin'.

http://home.planet.nl/~meind154/Verz/overig/info/vietnam/saigonexport.jpg

i would join you (virtually i mean, not inviting myself over) but it's two in the morning and the stores are all closed

(also none of the chinese or vietnames stores seem to stock beer - i have to ask stelfox about that one day)