Damn Women.

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Country music seems to have always treated women differently to other genres. I mean this whole thing that people talked about when the Spice Girls came along about women finally being the heartbreakers etc blah blah blah is kind of bullshit.

Look at Hank Williams for example. Most of his songs that concern relationships involve him being screwed over by some scheming hussy. And they have the sort of simple longing that so many different female solo artists have displayed for as long as I can remember.

In fact I thought of starting this thread when I heard Sheryl Crows version of Lonesome Blues. It sounds so much more ordinary with a woman singing it. Not ordinary in a bad way.

So I suppose I'm just commenting on this. But was there ever a particularly sexist general overtone in rock music through the 40s 50s 60s 70s etc. Some 1930s country music seems really progressive looking at it now.

So what do you think? I mean feel free to turn this thread into a discussion of sexism and the role and representation of men and women in music, generally speaking.

― Ronan, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Perhaps at the time social roles were more fixed and conservative, so if your (female) partner (OK, 'spouse' in those days) did the dirty on you, there was more of the I-can't-BELIEVE-this-does-not-compute world falling apart factor, as well as the loss-of-manly-face-and- status factor as well. Nowadays family breakups are shrugged off with relative ease, lyrically speaking, whereas it used to be HIGH DRAMA thus great for country's innate hamminess. BTW scheming hussies rule OK.

― dave q, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This is also why I think hip-hop has more in common with country than with 'soul' - hip-hop's "I'm gonna kill the bitch" is C&W's "How could she dewwww this tewwww me...", whereas 'soul' is just meretricious mellow mushmouth designed for the singer to get the pussy.

― dave q, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Hiphop and Country yes. Songs about mama. Songs about killing people, getting drunk, and so forth.

Although people say Country and Punk are linked and I never really understood it. I mean the thought of some kind of country punk hybrid is great but all it is is a thought as far as I've heard. Although it could be some shite band that play country songs with electric guitars.

― Ronan, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Country/Punk was punks realizing "w.w..wait... you mean people sang about having tough lives BEFORE us?" and then looking for the "hard" country or actually nearly inventing that where it didn't exist. Country, rap certainly.

But does it treat women differently? The whole virgin/whore thing seems to be fairly intact. Girl Power, spice style, wasn't "we can be bitches" (unlike Girl Power Missy style) but rather "we can set the rules" & seems related to the late 70s little-gurlz self-esteem movement more than anything else.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But wasn't it also "we're not going to write songs pining over guys anymore, we don't need that". And then it was almost like men had never written songs from the same hurt or even desperate point of view.

― Ronan, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Also what the hell is wrong with pining. jesus we all fuckin do it. theres nothing I enjoy more than a good pine. hence dave q being right about scheming hussies also.

― Ronan, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

pining is not the same as "treat her like a prostitute" by slick rick, or the country equiv. pining is indie-rock territory. in c&w someone dies after a woman done wrong.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Not always true. See Lonesome Blues, Lovesick Blues, Your Cheatin Heart, SOME Jimmie Rodgers. Perhaps Hank Williams is the main exception to that though. Although Johnny Cash Solitary Man also springs to mind.

― Ronan, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This may be somewhat off-topic and some may say tasteless, but I love Carlene Carter's quote, "I put the Cunt back in Country."

― Dave225, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I believe that a country/punk hybrid is more than just a "thought" but indeed a reality embodied by bands like Jason and the Scorchers, X, many bands on the Bloodshot label, etc.

― Sean, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There is something acceptable - and expected - about a country singer showing his vulnerability and hurt. Hip hop has a loooong way to go with this.

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Women being ruff rock heroes = on the rise (especially if you include hip hop) / men being vulnerable sensitive types = on the wane (especially if you include hip hop)

All the milquetoasts of yore (I'm looking at you, Frank Sinatra): here's to you.

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Dude, Tracer... have you seen Pal Joey or any sinatra fliks?

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

George Jones always seemed to be having a hard time with the ladies, but expressed it tenderly, if a little morosely: "He Stopped Loving Her Today"; "She Still Thinks I Care" and the gorgeous "Good Year For The Roses."

― Andy, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What about Merle Haggard? "Sing Me Back Home" esp., that's hip-hop in spirit if ever such thing existed.

― dave q, Friday, 8 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

men being vulnerable sensitive types = on the wane

On a slight tangent, this is why I love the Whig's Gentlemen so much. Dulli isn't afraid to portray/reveal himself as the asshole.

― bnw, Friday, 8 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one year passes...

revive.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 16 May 2003 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

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