TS: GRIME vs JUNGLE/DRUM N BASS

i guess i choose grime cause it's easier to say.

I would never pretend to know anything like as much about grime as I do about jungle/DnB, but I have never heard a grime track that hits me the same way that Mystic Stepper or Renegade Snares or The Dark Stranger or Open Your Mind did.

Maybe I just don't "get" grime, but it doesn't seem to have the same scope that jungle offered during its crazily eclectic and propulsive first few years, where the ruffest ragga cut-up tracks were played next to more melody-driven stuff. And grime just doesn't feel as funky, to these ears at least.

But I'm coming from a very junglist standpoint on this. If any of the grimeheads on ILM can recommend something to change my mind, then please do.

For me, jungle year dot, where the real crossover from hardcore to the more dubby jungle stuff was taking place = 1992.

But unlike Grime, Jungle was so much more obviously distant from hip-hop and operated in quite a different way from it. For one thing you didn't get a barrage of different MCs on one track and you'd only get two or three at a night freestyling or whatever over the beats.

This isn't necess. a bad thing (for Grime) of course, but may explain why some would prefer Jungle - it felt like more of a deviation, as opposed to an emulation.

*pause*

jungle by a country mile

I know it's probably more London-centric than even UK garage was, but are the pirate stations down there as deeply into it as they were for its predecessors? It has always felt like the scene is of a limited size compared to, say, UK garage. It seems to have only a pretty minimal representation on the pirates round M/cr, although I listen to them a lot less these days...getting old and that.

(x-post)

i would say grime does have 'grassroots' popularity in london, especially east london, and its mostly amongst kids or teenagers. then again, i dont know how popular it is, cos i havent done a census in the london area. but consider that a grime dvd like lord of the decks, which is meant to the flagship title in that market, sells about 3000-4000, and thats considered a big success. i think 12"s sell even less. 12"s seem to be pressed in quantities of about 500-1000 max i believe.

as far as emulation, yeah, grime is a lot closer to american hip hop now, despite the obvious diffs. it does have a sound of its own yeah, but its nowhere near as different as say, early so solid and more fire crew and pay as u go were to US hip hop. theres much more similarity. maybe thats why it hasnt taken off, cos uk hip hop, or british rap, in general just doesnt seem to get that much love from people in london/england in general. so solid and more fire were still totally garage-rooted so they had a sound that you couldnt say emulated the american hip hop artists at all, really. as MCs they didnt sound like hip hop MCs, same for the beats (which might be why they sold so much first time round, and why they bombed when they went hip hoppy 2nd time round).

anyway, despite jungle being based around hip hop breakbeats, and producers being hip hop inspired, it did something totally different from it. thats why it was so brilliant. grime artists seem to want to move towards being more 'hip hop' in general. maybe if it was more instrumental, that wouldnt be the case. its good on pirate radio though, just shit on records, mostly.

To be honest the similarity lies as much in the culture of violence surrounding it as the methods employed in production terms (including the MC relay thing, presumably popularised by US hip-hop via '21 Seconds'). For example, Dizzee getting stabbed and the Lethal B/Wiley beef. That sort of thing just didn't seem half as common in the Jungle scene, tho it was just as urban and just as powerful and fanatical a response and cultural engagement for those involved.

I'm waiting for Breakcore and Microhouse representation! Surely there must be numbers unallocated somewhere between Babestation and Man United TV??

they play any black british music, really. grimes just what people associate with it now, cos channel u has been instrumental in many grime artists' success.

General Levy haha.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40961000/jpg/_40961945_faceofboe300.jpg

This is off-base, not because it's not true but because most of the people who "over-intellectualise" grime (including myself) did the same for jungle, 2-step etc.

I'm resistant to the line of thinking that says some genres in particular simply don't require or merit in-depth discussion/analysis/etc. Either intellecualising is bad across the board or its not. The really painful examples of this in relation to grime would be painful no matter what music they were applied to I suspect.

but are any of these vids any good?! nope!

you may be right but why so?

grime can be tremendously exciting, but it's complete lack of ambition is a real downer. the american press (me included) has a real way of making it seem far more happening than it is.

is it not fundamentally incapable of that without becoming something else or being labelled as something else? when artists renowned for being Grime lynchpins do this it's suddenly no longer Grime it seems (see the last So Solid Crew album, Dizzee and the current Rolldeep and Kano ones for the obv. examples).

Dillinja was almost getting into the top 40 as recently as eighteen months ago! Crazy.

1. Dizzee - I Luv U (remix)
2. Jammer - Mystic
3. Jammer - Vice Versa
4. Roll Deep - mystery tune (I love girls, I love sex...)
5. Ruff Sqwad - Forwardish
6. XTC - Functions on the Low
7. Ruff Sqwad - Josh
8. Ruff Sqwad - We're Not Watching Dem
9. Ruff Sqwad - Your Love Feels
10. Ruff Sqwad - Gone
11. Tinchy Strider - It's Real
12. Wiley - Problems
13. Sharkie - So Many Days (This Ain't a Game)
14. Terror ft Shola Ama & Kano - So Sure
15. Wiley ft Dom P - Be Yourself
16. Dream - Get it Done
17. Dogzilla - Neverending Story
18. Breeze - Be Like This
19. Riko ft Breeze - Don't Want You Back
20. Terror Danjah ft Shola Ama - With You
21. Wiley - Baby
22. Riko - Chosen One
23. Roll Deep ft Tinchy Strider - You Were Always
24. Wiley, Breeze, Riko, J2K - Pick Yourself Up (Target remix)
25. 2pac - run da streetz (dizzee remix)
26. Ruff Sqwad - Lethal Injection
27. Wiley - lyrics from Doorway over beat from Take Time (from Creeper mixtape)

This is THE SHIT. Thank you for mentioning it.

btw, this post prompted man like silverdollarcircle to respond to it on his blog. he responded in classically silvery, ornate, romantic, emo-ish, whimsical style. (j/k!)

Needlepoint Majik! Always had a soft spot for that one. Also Organized Crime/Mermaids. He did do some serious sub-bass but he was always too much with the sci-fi FX

haha grime isn't looking too good all of a sudden

No offense, but this is one of the many syndromes I've grown to hate about dance music writing... watching genres like they're stocks

That Simon Silverdollar seems like a very nice man. It's just when he starts going on about the "nobility" of some MC or other that I recoil

Got some issues with emotional intimacy, then?

maybe people watch dance music genres like theyre stocks cos theyre all about the 'here and now' and thats what makes them exciting, the fact they dont trudge on for decades on end in the name of bollocksian tradition like rock when all the real energy and life and ambition has been sucked out of it

i mean, compare drum n bass of 2005 to 1995, theres no contest

Good list but I must admit that I dislike "Neverending Story" and Dogzilla generally.

But I love Donae'o's "Bark" - score one for whimsical!

Ah, but inarticularcy (if that's even a word) can be so affecting. Some of the greatest grime tunes ever are on that list.

maybe people watch dance music genres like theyre stocks cos theyre all about the 'here and now' and thats what makes them exciting, the fact they dont trudge on for decades on end in the name of bollocksian tradition like rock when all the real energy and life and ambition has been sucked out of it

Another very tired trope! Dance music vs. rock music.

This illusion is central to dance music, but really that's all it is. Dance music as we conceive it today--ie, as a descendant of disco--is a 30-year-old tradition that really hasn't thrown up anything radical formally in at least 10 (jungle you could argue was a last gasp whose failings/eventual tedium lie in the fact that it's self-conscious radicalism made it over-invested in itself as genre).

And who cares! The Zeitgeist has little to do with what makes music good/affecting. It's not a particularly interesting/useful framework for analysis, and neither is some vague idea of the "future" in music.

actually, both these things are what endear grime to hipsters so dearly.

x-post ha ha now you want to have it both ways!

no no, just that like many current hip hop artists, when grime MCs try to peer inside their navels, it ends up as gushy, insipid, and altogether contrived as when someone like beanie sigel or jay-z makes something like 'song cry'. its totally false, and appears to be an insight into their vulnerability, yet really, theyre not letting any of their guard down, and its all just a ruse. theyre usually shirking all responsibilty inside these tracks, and if they are actually admiting some flaws, its worded so dully and adolescently that its like theyre reading a page from their teenage diaries. i have no use for a grime alanis morrisette or worse, meredith brookes!

"Song Cry" is great!

Sure, they were/are fun variants on a bunch of pre-existing forms, but no, not anything particularly novel.

actually, both these things are what endear grime to hipsters so dearly.

I know that, fuhl. That's what makes the discourse around it so annoying sometimes.

xxxpost - finney, no dis, but you love a lot of sugary pop-rap tripe, so im not surprised you like song cry. its the hip hop equivalent of a bette middler or celine dion record. its rubbish man!

anyway, im off to listen to my fave youngstar and dj wonder beats and dream of a genre where everything is as great or interesting as 'what' or 'revival'.

theres more space for personality now (although if you can tell half the guys doing it now apart from one another, youre a cleverer man than i), but most of these guys are still best as pirate/rave MCs, and not much else. if grime had more of a live outlet, and more of a following, this wouldnt be a prob, but as theyre trying to make it like hip hop and follow dizzee's lead into being an 'artist', it looks like its going to lead to some frustration. not everyone here IS an artist, i dont think even wiley is, truth be told. hes just a genius producer and great radio MC.

hold on, what do you mean they make beats on their playstations? is that why they sound like that? OMG WTF?!?!!! i wish this board had an edit facility.

oh, and i'm not a very nice man btw. i'm fucking horrible, ask anyone.

I think it is hugely overrated.

Seriously, aren't 3 quarters of Ruff Sqwad's tracks, and ALL of Target's tracks, ornate and romantic? And what's not romantic about passionate desire for fame, wealth and glory? Reynolds even called the Hot Boys Romantics, but I guess with a capital R it's a different deal, an -ism.

aw, so sweet of you to say, darling!

Fizzle don't undermine yourself!

Look I sympathise with a lot of what you're saying - there's a reason I tend to love all the tracks that sound like garage throwbacks (eg. the original "Hype Hype") and I still love the old MC stuff like Gods Gift on "Mic Tribute" etc. etc. And I don't really want to see grime go hip hop either. But I think it's massively mistaken to assume that it's one or the other, either proto-grime shouting over "Pow" beats or slick US hip hop homages.

Funny that Keith brought up Target here - who alongside Dizzy helped invent romantic grime with stuff like the remix of "Pick Yourself Up" (which I've now not heard for over two years tragically) - 'cos the thing that makes Aim High 2 so special to me is how it escapes that either/or trap so easily. Everything is well-produced but not slick and anonymous and the MCs are at the top of their game - meaningful but hyperactice and vibey all at once. I mentioned Donae'o's "Bark" upthread partly because it is kinda whimsical, but also because it seems to capture that secrete history of uptempo ravey grime that includes stuff like "Course Bruv" and "Dem Lots Ere Now" and "R.U.F.F.", stretching right through to stuff like "When I'm Ere".

i agree that when its not hyper and speedy, it doesnt have to mean its hiphop, but it can still pass for uk hip hop when its like that, often. i mean, i heard that slew dem crew love song they played on logans show the other month/week, and what was great about it was that before playing it, they said its not a blatant sell out love tune, then they played it and it was some typical sappy r&b-hip hop ballad!

xxxxxxpost, when i say amateur, i dont necessarily mean amateurish sonic quality, i mean the actual musical content, the 'i have never ever ever played a keyboard in my life before this tune' feel. then again, with a tune like ruff squads anna, if i hear the instrumental, i find it kinda interesting, even in spite of this, but when its got vocals on it, i find it faintly ridiculous. maybe i was a bit hard on the idea of grime not being good at 'songs' - i mean, whats a 'song'? just cos i think half of them are crap, doesnt mean theyre not songs does it? something just seems to get lost often in the case of grime MCs between a pirate studio and a recording studio. its like that 'electricity' isnt there or something. and then even when it is, the lyrics seem like they were better as ephemeral material.

anyway, countdown riddim is hilarious.

I don't tend to like many of the attempts at sappy r&b hip hop ballads either actually, mainly 'cos I do like the US ones and these sound like really subpar versions of them. Actually I'd happy to live without grime freestyling over US hip hop beats almost entirely.

In terms of new tunes I'm probably way behind a lot of other people around here cos I don't have good access to radio or mixtapes. I mean apart from Aim High 2 where I love every track except Godzilla's (which actually does slot into the actual bad stereotype of sensitive reflective grime you've constructed) probably most of the stuff I've been listening to is from last year - the Newham Generals singles, Bruza's Terra Danjah-produced singles, Fire Camp, JME, Skepta's "Private Caller 2"... I'm hoping to correct this by ordering some more mixtapes - which site do non-UK people find works well?

does he trigger Amen loops in Reason using his teeth?

xpost - also, does armed jack wank off his sp1200 at raves?

who rembembers grime

dizzee rascal

The first two posts aren't really from 2001, are they?

I still listen to grime, like 2002/2003 grime. It's amazing

http://www.beatport.com/track/kingmob-vip-original-mix/3470534

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDCtqk3nRic

Given that the Rinse.fm livestream is essentially the only thing in my itunes right now, yes, I do remember grime. Living in the UK has acclimatised me to it a bit, and now I kind of regret sleeping on it as much as I have. Why the other night I had a dream where I was DJing and playing all this amazing grime, and then after waking up in the dream started complaining about why I can't find grime that sounds that good in waking life.