Where to Begin: Wu-Tang and Friends

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I kinda ignored hip hop in the 1990s, but recently my interest has been re-piqued. I've greatly enjoyed Liquid Swords and Only Built 4 Cuban Linx.

Where should I go next with Wu-Tang and friends? Or have I already enjoyed the peaks and it is all downhill from here?

― Matt Sab (Matt Sab), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

The first album is a bonafide clizasic.

― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Ol' Dirty's Return to the 36 Chambers & Ghostface's Supreme Clientele are both brilliant and unique, but almost all of their respective solo work is worth your time. Enter the Wu-Tang is obviously essential. There's not much consensus on the merits of other stuff, but I can't think of any Wu-affiliated project that I've utterly hated.

― Anti-Pope Consortium (noodle vague), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Just stay away from Iron Flag.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Iron Flag.

I think the last GZA record, Legend of the Liquid Swords, was great, kinda flew under the radar.

Method Man's first solo album is good. Also, ODB's Nigga Please is great.

But yeah, if you don't have the first Wu group album, that's really the place to start.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

TOP FIVE:

1. Only built 4 cuban links
2. supreme clientele
3. 36 chambers
4. return to the 36 chambers: dirty version
5. liquid swords.

and then get biggie's ready to die.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

There's like a million threads on this already!

Obviously from the first wave which everyone will tell you about - cbn lnx, lqd swrds, ntr th w-tng, rtrn t th 36: drty vrsn, tical.

Later period stuff can be great. Esp: Supreme Clientele, Nigga Please, Iron Flag, Bobby Digital, etc.

― deej.., Wednesday, 20 July 2005 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course you must play 36 Chambers until it wears out, but all of the Wu-Tang Clan albums are worth your time. Yes, even Forever (which has about 1.3 albums' worth of first-rate material - RZA is so en fuego that "Wu Revolution" works; his track featuring Tekitha for "Reunited" is epic) and Iron Flag, which would rate high for Meth and GZA's verses on "Radioactive" alone.

First Ghostface album is very good (search "Assassination Day"). Meth's albums disappointingly inconsistent.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I'm one of the few who rates RZA as an MC and lyricist, but to my ear Bobby Digital = notsomuch.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)

"Daytona 500" and "Winter Warz" from Ironman!

― deej.., Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:52 (twenty-one years ago)

And "Black Jesus."

― deej.., Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:52 (twenty-one years ago)

"36 chambers" and "iron man" are the ones you should get first.

Just ignore all the shitty wu-hangers on like Cappadonna, Sunz Of Man, Killah Priest etc.

And the U-God solo album.

And "immobilarity" by Raekwon (worst follow up to a complete and utter classic in rap history).

And any of the Meth'albums that aren't "tical" (the Method Man & Redman "blackout" album is great though).

― Ellis, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Did you miss ALL of hip hop since 1990? You need to search out all the Timbaland threads littered around ILM, like right now.

― lyra (lyra), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

THat last post doesn't make any sense.

― deej.., Wednesday, 20 July 2005 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Sure it does. 36 Chambers is excellent, but I was going to play something for someone who hadn't heard much rap music, I would start with the songs listed on one of the Timbaland list threads we did. If search wasn't timing out on me, I'd link to the one thread that I remember listing the top 100 timbaland produced tracks, which had a lot of great songs listed.

― lyra (lyra), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

"36 Chambers" is the obvious start point as you could probably pick out who you liked best of them from that. Also it's stupendously awesome itself. Solo-wise I'd pick Meth's "Tical" as the best, although most seem to prefer Ghost, GZA and Raekwon who are all ace.

― Nick H (Nick H), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

THE Wu album is Liquid Swords, which is still my favorite hip-hop album period. Every song's a classic.

There are a dozens of tracks to hunt down--a multiple CD box set needs to be put together some time.

― Adam Harrison-Friday, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

As far as "friends" go, Killah Priest is great, even though he sometimes (ok, often) gets caught up in the Ras Kass/Canibus axis of misused SAT words and fuzzy, just plain wrong history (hell he was in an aborted super group with em, but yeah), but like how can you hate on B.I.B.L.E. from liquid swords?

Heavy Mental is rad, as is Priesthood, hater. But he's the only fam member I fucks with. Shoulda been the ninth member, if he hadn't napped on the job and let Masta Killa rob his verse and get on the mic with it first. Cappadonna can eat a dick apart from the ill verse or two sprinkled throughout his career.

― AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S BLUE, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

No, it doesnt make sense because

a) he specifically requested wu-tang tracks
b) timbaland is not inherently better than wu-tang, nor is he per se a "better" example of what makes good rap music
c) All the Wu-Tang stuff we're posting about came out after 1990
d) quite a bit of it also came out around the same time timbaland was producing (supreme clientele, iron flag, etc.)
e) what on earth does timbaland have to do with anything? Is this some sort of weird, "no, the token rap artist you're supposed to like is TIMBALAND, Wu-Tang is SO last year's token" thing?

― deej.., Wednesday, 20 July 2005 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry if I sound like bitter jerk man, its been a long day.

― deej.., Wednesday, 20 July 2005 20:04 (twenty-one years ago)

haha!

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 23:04 (twenty-one years ago)

another good 'friends' release: Killarmy 'Silent Weapons for Secret Wars'

― Robin Goad (rgoad), Thursday, 21 July 2005 07:42 (twenty-one years ago)

What was the name of the white guy again? Remedy? He was fucking shit.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 21 July 2005 08:34 (twenty-one years ago)

the pretty toney album is so, so good. I prefer it to supreme clientele!

― haitch (haitch), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:09 (twenty-one years ago)

i was at a friends house a few weeks ago and mtvjams played about 10 wu-tang videos back to back! i was floored, having never seen any of them. the chessboxing vid is awesome, and there was an amazing odb one too. the daytona 500 video made up of spliced footage of the speed racer cartoon to make it look like the characters are rapping was the best (and directed by RZA!). even the bad ones (the camay video is ridiculous and almost ruins the song) were entertaining. i cursed not having a vcr there to tape all that.

― Ô¿Ô (eman), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:22 (twenty-one years ago)

If we're talking about friends of the Wu as well then Redman has to be mentioned. Whut Thee Album is great and Smash Sumthin' with Adam F is a bit of a classic with me. And that's not to mention the whole album he did with Method Man. It's mostly Erick Sermon on Red's beats though rather than the RZA.

― Nick H (Nick H), Thursday, 21 July 2005 18:54 (twenty-one years ago)

36 Chambers, Liquid Swords, Supreme Clientele, Cuban Linx, Tical, Pretty Toney, Nigga Please

would be my order.

― Quinn (quinn), Thursday, 21 July 2005 18:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i really think Redman is weak compared to anything Wu, his flow is not really based on vocal quality, if you hear rza or gza spit you feel a certain force, Redman is a partycat. I dont really like party cats

― Rizz (Rizz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 18:59 (twenty-one years ago)

you don't feel a certain force when redman raps??????

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 21 July 2005 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Niggamortis, people!

― Matt #2 (Matt #2), Thursday, 21 July 2005 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

you don't feel a certain force when redman raps??????

certainly not compared to those Wu ppl

― rizzx (rizzx), Thursday, 21 July 2005 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Start with Raekwon's Only Built 4 Cuban Linx and Ghostface's Supreme Clientele. The first ODB album is one of the funniest records of the last 20 yrs.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 21 July 2005 20:23 (twenty-one years ago)

the intro on the first odb is hilarious. only odb could pull pranks like that

― rizzx (rizzx), Thursday, 21 July 2005 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

that first redman hasn't aged well. "muddy waters" is the one to get.

― Ô¿Ô (eman), Thursday, 21 July 2005 20:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Given all the solo project love on this thread, I feel compelled to say again: do not sleep on Forever.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Thursday, 21 July 2005 21:37 (twenty-one years ago)

the first redman is still great. u r insane and gay.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 21 July 2005 21:46 (twenty-one years ago)

and precisely correct in my evaluation of your poor taste and lack of wit.

― Ô¿Ô (eman), Thursday, 21 July 2005 23:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Redman's verse on Buck 50 off Supreme Clientele is pretty great - "yr not prepared/for the project flow/with extra stairs"

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 23:29 (twenty-one years ago)

supreme clientele isn't the place to start, but it's my favorite

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 21 July 2005 23:32 (twenty-one years ago)

+ some extended fam' picks: 6 Feet Deep, Heavy Mental, Quiet Weapons for Silent Wars, The Last Shall Be First

― Roque Strew (RoqueStrew), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Heavy Mental, probably the most sadly overlooked Wu album

― rizzx (rizzx), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:04 (twenty-one years ago)

will no-one rep for the Masta Killa solo joint? It came out last year but some of that stuff had been sitting in the cans forever and had a really cold groove to it. Also, it featured Big Baby Jesus doin' the "two all-beef patties" jingle in overdrive.

On a sesame seed bun, ya big dummy!

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I still don't own the Masta Killa, but what i've heard of it is good. what about the Theodore Unit? I remember thinking that it sounded better than Pretty Toney but it gets no love.

― ?ÎÓDDDJHKHVBNM (eman), Friday, 22 July 2005 11:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Forever is surprisingly good - the beats are better than on 36 Chambers, but admittedly the raps on the latter are more energetic and fresh. "Triumph" is still my favourite track featuring the whole Clan though. Iron Flag is great for the first half, but the second kinda wears you down.

Killah Priest is definitely underrated, Priesthood is brilliant, though his last album was a bit of a disappointment - his flow sounds kinda rushed and abrupt, and the beats are varied in standard.

Liquid Swords is great, but not as great as everyone seems to think, RZA's beats have improved throughout the years. Ditto for Supreme Clientele; Ghostface's flow is pretty hard to take for the length of a full album, and some of the beats on that LP are pretty weak. The best beats RZA has ever produced can be found on Digital Bullet, his second solo joint, but unfortunately RZA isn't the best of rappers, otherwise that could've been the best Wu record ever.

As for the best Wu related LP of all time, that's definitely 6 Feet Deep / Niggamortis. No doubt.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 22 July 2005 11:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Tuomos, why do you like the beats better on Forever? I 'get' that on ILM there's this argument that recent Wu >>> old Wu and I understand it to a degree, but to me much of the production on Forever is not particularly 'pop' in a way that it is on, say, Iron Flag. Even the early Wu albums sound MORE 'pop' to me! And I also like the scratchy off-kilter sample RZA better, but in this case I'm surprised yr so enthused about the beats on Forever which, give or take a few obvious tracks, leave me kind of dry.

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, in general I thinks RZA's beats have gotten better over time. I do like the beats on 36 Chambers too, but I never bought the argument that lo-fi = good (to me, a track like "Can It Be All So Simple" sounds plain muddy). I like the way RZA uses samples, but on 36 Chambers the beats are based more on simple loops (not that that's necessary a bad thing), whereas the samplescapes on Forever sound more complex and interesting. This is why favourite beat on 36 Chambers is "Tearz", what with all the dubby effects at the end. Also, some of the actual drum parts (the breakbeats) on 36 Chambers sound quite weak (check the drums on "Shame on a Nigga", for example). Also, RZA seems to have gotten caught up in his particular lo-fi style; this is why I think Digital Bullet has his best beats ever, because the beats are really varied and different from his regular style - compare Digital Bullet to Iron Flag, released the same year, to see what I mean.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 22 July 2005 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Liquid Swords is great, but not as great as everyone seems to think,

haha, b*tch please

― Rizz (Rizz), Friday, 22 July 2005 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think anyone's arguing that lo-fi = good any more than you are arguing that 'complex' = interesting!

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm, should've worded that better... I wasn't saying complex is *always* better, but with RZA that seems to be the case. And I've often heard people say, here and elsewhere, that 36 Chambers is good *because* it's lo-fi, which I don't agree with. I mean, I like how RZA is decidedly imperfect with his usage of samples, but when that imperfection goes as far as muddled sound quality and boring drum breaks, I say not thanks.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 22 July 2005 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Best RZA solo thing I've come across is the Ghost Dog Way Of The Samurai soundtrack. It does contain some raps but it's a lot more based around the instrumentation, and thus RZA is in his element.

― Nick H (Nick H), Friday, 22 July 2005 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

See, I really do like how RZA harnessed that low-fi sample aesthetic considerably more than his more recent non-sample stuff, which always sounded really thin and unexciting to me. He had a unique way with samples, a distinct way that tended to make things seem off-kilter and threatening and uncomfortable. When it came to the cleaner digital stuff, i found it mostly more boring.

― deej.., Friday, 22 July 2005 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i can't believe no one will come to cappa's defense. i know he comes off aimless and awkward at first but give him time and it starts to make a lot of sense. that said, i wholeheartedly reccommend "the pillage." beyond that you can't miss with any of the 1st round group and solo releases. re: the later shit - any ghost is good ghost, nizza please is better than the 1st shit (yup),
"revolution" and "the w" are essential, "iron flag" is 1/3 good, later gza is boring, meth is corny (even the first shit kinda sucked but gets points for it's dirtiness), rae has awful beat taste though the lex diamonds story is worth a listen, no need to check for u-god or ins but do fuck with masta killah's "no said date."

― Young + clean. My parents are still married, Friday, 22 July 2005 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Best RZA solo thing I've come across is the Ghost Dog Way Of The Samurai soundtrack

WARNING - the RZA Ghost Dog score != the Ghost Dog soundtrack, which is mostly meh hip-hop (though "Walking Through The Darkness" pwns thanks to the huge "Across 110th Street" sample).

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Friday, 22 July 2005 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

That is true. Good point. I watched the film, loved the music and couldn't find either the OST or the score in the UK so I downloaded both. The score is excellent though.

― Nick H (Nick H), Monday, 25 July 2005 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

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