is rock REALLY dead? what makes it 'dead'?

So whatever Lenny says, everyone knows it's true.

That's what it comes down to, really. Some would argue that it isn't realy important at all in the grand scheme of things, and is merely treading water (see: that "Loveless is the death knell of rock" thread).

But even if everyone agrees on Lenny's word, he still listens to what his Mama Says.

shame he kept on rehashing old rock after he made that song in 1995. didnt really stand by his actions.

You make a good point, but I don't think Rock's detractors are saying that it has to be constantly innovative and growing and changing. BUT, if we hold it to be true that Loveless was the last really innovative thing to come of out 'rock,' than what is that.. 14 years without anything 'new'?

The Doodlebops are bringin' it back, Man. BRINGIN' IT BACK!!!

It all just boils down to marketing demographics. People say rock is "dead" whenever there's a dip in the youth market's interest in it. In terms of aesthetics, no art form ever truly "dies" unless people stop practicing it altogether. Which is obviously not the case with rock n roll. Whether anything "new" is happening in rock n roll is entirely a matter of perspective and personal taste. (I don't buy this "Loveless was the last time rock n roll produced anything innovative" bullshit. define "innovative")

some buncha clowns really SHOULD do this -- this could be this decade's dread zeppelin!!

They say the heart of rock and roll is still beating
And from what I’ve seen I believe ’em
Now the old boy may be barely breathing
But the heart of rock and roll is still beating

La, hollywood, and the sunset strip
Is something everyone should see
Neon lights and the pretty pretty girls
All dressed so scantily
When they play their music
That hard rock music
They like it with a lot of flash
But it’s still that same old back beat rhythm
That really kicks ’em in the

They say the heart of rock and roll is still beating
And from what I’ve seen I believe ’em
Now the old boy may be barely breathing
But the heart of rock and roll is still beating

Dc, san antone and the liberty town, boston and baton rouge
Tulsa, austin, oklahoma city, seattle, san francisco, too
Everywhere there’s music, real live music, bands with a million styles
But it’s still that some old rock and roll music
That really drives ’em wild

They say the heart of rock and roll is still beating
And from what I’ve seen I believe ’em
Now the old boy may be barely breathing
But the heart of rock and roll is still beating

I'm sure these guys have made some advances since Loveless?

is it doing this though?!

Yes.

what makes it 'dead'?

The fact that nobody's making good rock songs anymore!!

What, you actually expect me to ENJOY that new System of a Down album???

um sure man, like its abosorbed any of those things and made them great combined. rock hasnt really done anything strikingly different/new/radical en masse since post punk, arguably.

Nu-metal WAS new, Shaky's right....whether it was good outside of a few singles is vry debateable, but was new.

x-post

But anyway, when people say "innovative" they're usually just refering to new instrumentation. Real innovation comes in much more subtle forms, IMHO.

rock is now a more a matter of sublte, small ingenuity, rather than probably large scale "revolutions"...that time might be passed....although you could argue it always was! I mean, how innovative and "new" really was punk.....and, shaky's right, post-punk was more of a matter of assimilating these various influences, just like nu-metal...just like almost every musical movement ever, really....it's always babysteps rather than world-changing epic shakeups.....

i mean, has there been a big revolution in american hip hop that i've missed?

and yet:

Tony Wadsworth, chairman of the BPI, the record industry body. "We are seeing genres falling in place with formats. Rock isn't dead if you look at album sales."

Article summarised.

The other two rock songs to make it into the top 100 of the year were Train by Soul Sister and Dog Days are Over by Florence + the Machine.

18 Train "Hey Soul Sister" May 2010
24 Florence & The Machine Dog Days Are Over (re-emergence) Apr 2010

http://thequietus.com/articles/05506-2011-tips-brother
http://new.assets.thequietus.com/images/articles/5506/brother_cunts_1294254918_crop_550x349.jpg

One reference point that to me is pivotal is, when British radio ignored the Scandanavian Black Metal scene that sold millions globally in the late 90's.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2hz3dvr.png

Come on Geir, this is you isn't it?

Hibernica

10 January 2011 10:41PM

Rock n roll is dead because melody is dead.

Rhythym-based genres like RnB, hip hop and dance are all the rage. but they are all genres which use melody sparingly, if at all.

They are lesser art forms than more tuneful genres because they eschew the good old-fashioned tune so you need to be less talented to be successful than you did when melody was king.

What we're living through at the moment is an era where songs are easy to dance to but difficult to listen to.

The bad old days are here.

Nope. Melody is not dead. Melody will never die. :)

Also note that rock has been pronounced dead before as well, but has always made a comeback. There is actually a generation of kids who are into rock now, but it is of course a problem for rock that those kids tend to prefer old music by Iron Maiden, AC/DC, Guns'n'Roses and Metallica rather than checking out new rock.

My feeling is that of course rock isn't dead - look at all the 2000-capacity venues still being filled by rock bands, with no sign of that ever ending.

However, Geir, by your logic about indie, surely you would say that rock has been driven underground, in that rock No 1s are few and far between and are often reissued songs or ancient bands.

i wonder how many 'rock' songs were in the top 100 singles in say 1987 or 1992 or 2000. can't have been.. a crazy amount more than now can it?

However, Geir, by your logic about indie, surely you would say that rock has been driven underground, in that rock No 1s are few and far between and are often reissued songs or ancient bands.

Save for the 50s and a brief period in the late 60s/early 70s, rock music has never been the dominant musical form in the singles charts though.

All the above OTM. The whole story is limited to the singles chart - meanwhile rock bands sell out venues as big as the O2 with some regularity.

I don't know who Radio 4 had as their "expert" yesterday afternoon but his sole contribution was to claim that Kings of Leon aren't a singles band, when in fact they're probably the ONLY rock band with never-leave-the-chart megahits in the past two or three years.

Selling out venues is more dependant on older material though. It seems rock bands are currently having a hard time selling newly penned material.

But so they did in 1991, then stuff happened.

i wonder how many 'rock' songs were in the top 100 singles in say 1987

UK Top 100 Singles of 1987

1 Never Gonna Give You Up – Rick Astley
2 Nothing’s Gonna Stop Us Now – Starship
3 I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me) – Whitney Houston
4 You Win Again – Bee Gees
5 China In Your Hand – T’Pau
6 Respectable – Mel and Kim
7 Stand By Me – Ben E King
8 It’s A Sin – Pet Shop Boys
9 Star Trekkin’ – The Firm
10 Pump Up The Volume – M/A/R/R/S
11 I Knew You Were Waiting (For Me) – George Michael & Aretha Franklin
12 Under The Boardwalk – Bruce Willis
13 Let It Be – Ferry Aid
14 Always On My Mind – Pet Shop Boys
15 Got My Mind Set On You – George Harrison
16 Can’t Be With You Tonight – Judi Boucher
17 La Isla Bonita - Madonna
18 La Bamba – Los Lobos
19 Hold Me Now – Johnny Logan
20 Who’s That Girl - Madonna
21 Everything I Own – Boy George
22 Down To Earth – Curiousity Killed The Cat
23 When A Man Loves A Woman – Percy Sledge
24 Heartache – Pepsi and Shirlie
25 Always – Atlantic Starr
26 Whenever You Need Somebody – Rick Astley
27 Toy Boy - Sinitta
28 I Get The Sweetest Feeling – Jackie Wilson
29 Faith – George Michael
30 I Just Can’t Stop Loving You – Michael Jackson & Siedah Garrett
31 Live It Up – Mental As Anything
32 Love In The First Degree/Mr. Sleaze - Bananarama
33 Crockett’s Theme – Jan Hammer
34 Alone - Heart
35 Wipeout – Fat Boys & Beach Boys
36 Call Me - Spagna
37 Let’s Wait Awhile – Janet Jackson
38 Jack Your Body – Steve ‘Silk’ Hurley
39 The Great Pretender – Freddie Mercury
40 Male Stripper – Man 2 Man Meets Man Parrish
41 Lean On Me – Club Nouveau
42 What Have I Done To Deserve This – Pet Shop Boys & Dusty Springfield
43 Some People – Cliff Richard
44 A Boy From Nowhere – Tom Jones
45 With Or Without You – U2
46 Wishing Well – Terence ‘Trent’ D’Arby
47 Heart and Soul – T’Pau
48 Fairytale Of New York – The Pogues & Kirsty MacColl
49 I Wanna Be Your Drill Instructor – Abigail Mead & Nigel Goulding
50 My Arms Keep Missing You/When I Fall In Love – Rick Astley
51 Never Can Say Goodbye - Communards
52 Bad – Michael Jackson
53 You’re The Voice – John Farnham
54 Living In A Box – Living In A Box
55 Little Lies – Fleetwood Mac
56 The Way You Make Me Feel – Michael Jackson
57 Sweet Little Mystery – Wet Wet Wet
58 Reet Petite – Jackie Wilson
59 Shattered Dreams – Johnny Hates Jazz
60 True Faith – New Order
61 Criticize – Alexander O’Neal
62 Rockin’ Around The Christmas Tree – Mel Smith & Kim Wilde
63 Crush On You – The Jets
64 I Want Your Sex – George Michael
65 Love Letters – Alison Moyet
66 Jack Mix II - Mirage
67 If You Let Me Stay –Terence ‘Trent’ D’Arby
68 Labour Of Love – Hue and Cry
69 Running In The Family – Level 42
70 Almaz – Randy Crawford
71 (Something Inside) So Strong – Labi Siffre
72 Causing A Commotion - Madonna
73 My Baby Just Cares For Me – Nina Simone
74 (I’ve Had) The Time Of My Life – Bill Medley & Jennifer Warnes
75 I Found Lovin’ – Fatback Band
76 Weak In The Presence Of Beauty – Alison Moyet
77 FLM – Mel & Kim
78 Letter From America – The Proclaimers
79 The Slightest Touch – Five Star
80 What Do You Want To Make Those Eyes At Me For – Shakin’ Stevens
81 So Emotional – Whitney Houston
82 Mony Mony – Billy Idol
83 Somewhere Out There – Linda Ronstadt & James Ingram
84 House Nation – Housemaster Boyz
85 Heaven Is A Place On Earth – Belinda Carlisle
86 Animal – Def Leppard
87 Wishing I Was Lucky – Wet Wet Wet
88 Here I Go Again - Whitesnake
89 Is This Love – Alison Moyet
90 The Circus - Erasure
91 Crazy Crazy Nights - KISS
92 I Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For – U2
93 The Living Daylights – A-ha
94 Coming Around Again – Carly Simon
95 C’est La Vie – Robbie Nevil
96 Another Step (Closer To You) – Kim Wilde & Junior
97 I Need Love – LL Cool J
98 Is This Love - Whitesnake
99 Jive Talkin’ – Boogie Box High
100 No More The Fool – Elkie Brooks

Have been pretty loose with my definition of rock... but it looks like a pretty moribund singles genre even then.

The Starship one was almost entirely based upon synths, and produced by Narada Michael Walden, so I don't know if I'd count that one even though "We Built This City" was rock.

Btw. I would guess there were probably fewer rock songs in 1983 than in 1987. 1987 was more or less the crown year of the hair metal genre.

Wow, chart rock was fucking awful in 1987 (cept for 34, 45 & 55)

xpost. Kings of Leon, Arcade Fire and Elbow all selling out O2 on strength of their last couple of albums.

Rock has never been as absent from the charts as it has been in the last couple of years, which is the difference between now and previous 'rock is dead' statements.

But the charts are more dead than Rock so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

xpost Yes, Geir, but nor was indie ever prevalent in the singles chart. Until the era you said it had been driven underground.

xpost Don't forget Coldplay as well, Dorian. And Muse selling out multiple nights at stadiums.

Kings of Leon, Arcade Fire and Elbow all selling out O2 on strength of their last couple of album

The first two I understand but Elbow seriously got that big?

Yeah, they're called "Big Elbow" thesedays...

The Killers are (regrettably) still very big too.

And that's leaving aside the countless big metal bands, not all of whom are Maidenesque veterans. Avenged Sevenfold, for example.

yeah Elbow's sales went through the roof when they won the Mercury in 09 and ever since they've been an arena type band. played up here at Manchester MEN (largest indoor venue in the country) a year ago. also The Courteeners; a down the line rock band from round here, also played Gmex late last year and none of them can be much older than their late 20s and have never had much chart action.

Courteeners are like a zillion times as popular in their home town as anywhere else tho right? Much more so than bands tend to be, even

Yes, Courteeners play venues four times bigger in Manchester than anywhere else in the country.

Yeah, they're called "Big Elbow" thesedays...

There was an arse joke waiting to be made there, but alas, the moment has passed.

"82 Mony Mony – Billy Idol"

This song makes me want to kill when it comes on the radio. Goddamn i hate it so much.

Speaking of huge rock acts, I am guessing Green Day and My Chemical Romance don't exactly struggle to fill stadiums either.

The former of course being an act that has been around for some time, but their last couple of albums are very important for a large part of their fanbase. They don't benefit all that much from "Basket Case" anymore.

PiscesX: The main guy out of the Courteeners is my age, whatever his PR and record label claim he is... he's not in his early 20s.

Patrick Carney Rips Nickelback: 'Horrendous Sh*t' Says Black Keys Drummer

"Rock & roll is dying because people became OK with Nickelback being the biggest band in the world," he told the magazine. "So they became OK with the idea that the biggest rock band in the world is always going to be sh*t - therefore you should never try to be the biggest rock band in the world. F*ck that! Rock & roll is the music I feel the most passionately about, and I don't like to see it fucking ruined and spoon-fed down our throats in this watered-down, post-grunge crap, horrendous shit. When people start lumping us into that kind of shit, it's like, 'F*ck you,' honestly."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/patrick-carney-rips-nickelback-horrendous-shit_n_1183950.html

Rock 'n' Roll Is Dead? Again?
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/column/158581-rock-n-roll-is-dead-again/

Using Scott's earlier litmus test of Rose Tattoo, I definitely like last year's Graveyard album and this year's Royal Thunder better than Rose Tattoo :)

lol that the idea of "rock n' roll" being alive comes down to "what jack black thinks" vs. "what dave grohl thinks"

in the sense that Jack Black = Pesci, Dave Grohl = de Niro and Rock'n'Roll = body suddenly making a lot of noise in the trunk of the car

http://static.nme.com/images/gallery/08128_102208_davegrohl_ge_L180907.jpg

"Go get your fuckin' shinebox, Jackie"

The enlightened Billy Corgan chimes in: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2405788,00.asp - it's Facebook and Apple's fault!

Good thing too.

dead

it's UNDEAD guys! ZOMBIE ROCK DEATH MEME!

rock has been declared dead every few years since Elvis joined the army

i think the "rock is dead" narrative actually died for a few years, when the "hip hop is dead" one started picking up steam

RIP rock

http://on.aol.com/video/russell-brand-screams-we-built-this-city-on-rock-and-roll-517385489

The hero can't dead till the last reel!

Rock may not be dead in the same sense that jazz isn't 'dead' but it's getting to the point where I only hear new rock that sounds innovative or fresh about once a year.

I think that Rock of Ages movie is sort of 'file in rock is dead' category. Also that Twisted Sister and Poison still have careers.

what on earth makes it dead?

apparently when a critic decides they want a piece that'll generate buzz/draw readers

2019: when the guy from Superchunk thinks he's Harold Budd and the guy from Lambchop thinks he's Frank Ocean

Rock officially migrated to Australia

Died of the boogie-woogie flu, wasn't vaxxed

got @Metoo'ed