Grandmaster Flash "The Message"

love this song to death, by the way.

This line goes through my head over and over again:

"Can't walk in the park cause it's crazy after dark/
keep my hand on my gun cause they got me on the run"

so simple and perfect

rapping on this song is so incredible

Also the delivery on this part:

"Smugglers, scrambles, burglars, gamblers
Pickpockets, peddlers even panhandlers"

I mean every part really though.

You'll grow in the ghetto, living second rate. And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate

really boggles me that this came out in '82

Top five rap song of all time?

top five song of all time

Amen.

Seriously; seek out the 12-minute single "Superrappin"...it'll blow your mind (no disrespect to "The Message")

That is great but "The Message" had... you know, a MESSAGE, and that was a deal changer for hip-hop.

It never occurred to until like two days ago how much "More Bounce to the Ounce" is in this song's DNA.

i think melle's message verse is in the vers of superrappin in question

Was about to post that; the whole verse that starts with "a child is born with no state of mind..." originates on "Superrappin'", which actually touches on a bunch of subjects (at 12 minutes, how could it not??)

Heard The Message at a party last weekend and got excited.

No, I agree with that. I wasn't clear I guess; I just meant that "The Message" seemed to break through to non-hip-hop types at the time. It's important for that even if it's not the first to touch upon those lyrics. And maybe that's part of why I appreciate it so much.

the message track is so awesome, really chilly eerie electro vs. superrappin which is fun fake chic disco stuff but not that mindblowing imo

^^^^

"fun fake chic disco stuff" with rappers is exactly what does blow my mind, though

Btw Flash just released this disc called "The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash"; it's basically about an hour of "Wheels of Steel" type stuff; really really good and IMO much better than any of his actual LPs, which ranged from somewhat good (The Message) to god-awful (everything else)

i'm not saying it's bad, just that the message doesn't get enough credit for pushing forward hip hop musically (as opposed to lyrically)

I always thought that most of the electro elements were done better by Bambaataa, I mean "Message" is good but "Looking For the Perfect Beat" is just on a completely different level, way ahead of its time and IMO did a lot more to push hip-hop forward.

i'm not saying it's bad, just that the message doesn't get enough credit for pushing forward hip hop musically (as opposed to lyrically)

― pajamagram sam (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 10 February 2011 21:25 (1 hour ago) Permalink

It doesn't? "The Message" is incredible. I'm still awed by it. Actual awe.

It still boggles my mind that Grandmaster Flash himself had nothing whatsoever to do with either "The Message" or "White Lines." It's true! I read it on Wikipedia!

Does he ever mention those songs in interviews, like "nahhh fuck that shit! Melle Mell was nothing but a talentless crackhead! 'The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel' was my real masterpiece!"

Matt otm.

boggles my mind as well that the guy who basically defined the expanded vocabulary of hip hop DJ'ing barely even scratches on any of his own records apart from "Wheels". the other innovation was bringing in a team of live vocalists to turn his live act into a consistent 'band' but once the group went into the studio, ironically they couldn't use the founder that much on the actual records

lo-fi but amazing: http://anorthcountrybhoy.wordpress.com/2010/07/28/grandmaster-flash-the-furious-4-mcs-live-at-audubon-ballroom-1978/

Flash is pretty conflicted over The Message - he opposed it initially, was overruled by Sugarhill's Sylvia Robinson, didn't appear on it, thought it would ruin his career, then accepted Robinson was right when it became a massive hit, then fell out with Robinson and split the band. That would leave anybody confused.

Yeah the whole thing is really confusing. "White Lines" is pretty much a Melle Mel solo track though it's usually credited to Flash. Sadly Flash & the Furious Five split way too early, Flash put out a couple of awful records on his own, but then Melle Mel took the "Grandmaster" name, it's all so confusing, I would say just buy a compilation and hope for the best.

This one is good and pretty comprehensive:

http://images.slacker.com/covers/272/337006

1. "Freedom" (Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5) - 8:18
2. "The Birthday Party" (Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five) - 8:22
3. "The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel" (Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five) - 7:10
4. "Showdown" (The Furious Five meets The Sugarhill Gang) - 5:54
5. "It's Nasty (Genius Of Love)" (Grand Master Flash & The Furious Five) - 7:52
6. "Flash to the Beat (Part 1)" (Grand Master Flash) - 4:28
7. "The Message" (Grand Master Flash & The Furious Five featuring Melle Mel & Duke Bootee) - 7:14
8. "Scorpio" (Grand Master Flash & The Furious Five) - 4:57
9. "Message II (Survival)" (Melle Mel & Duke Bootee) - 6:55
10. "New York New York" (Grand Master Flash & The Furious Five) - 7:26
11. "Jesse" (Grandmaster Melle Mel) - 6:12

CD2

1. "White Lines (Don't Do It)" (Grandmaster & Melle Mel) - 7:40
2. "Beat Street" (Grand Master Melle Mel & The Furious Five, with Mr. Ness & Cowboy) - 7:05
3. "Internationally Known" (Grand Master Melle Mel & The Furious Five, with Mr. Ness & Cowboy) - 6:32
4. "We Don't Work For Free" (Grandmaster Melle Mel & The Furious Five) - 5:00
5. "Step Off" (The Furious Five, featuring Cowboy, Melle Mel & Scorpio) - 7:24
6. "Pump Me Up" (Grandmaster Melle Mel & The Furious Five) - 4:52
7. "World War III" (Melle Mel) - 8:20
8. "Sign Of The Times" (Grandmaster Flash) - 6:11
9. "Girls Love The way He Spins" (Grandmaster Flash) - 6:36
10. "Vice (from Miami Vice)" - (Grandmaster Melle Mel) - 5:03
11. "Style (Peter Gunn Theme)" (Extended Remixed Version) (Grandmaster Flash) - 5:03
12. "U Know What Time It Is" (Extended Scratch Version) (Grandmaster Flash) - 3:52 (**)

Only important omission I can think of is "We Rap More Mellos" (released as The Younger Generation in 79) but that was on some other label.

Mellow*

missing melle mel's fast rap style "freestyle"

the sad thing about this era of hip hop is that the *real* thing was never really documented on record...the parties with DJ cutting it up, as all the records relied on studio musicians and backing tracks. bums me out

then again maybe the real actual thing was those nights in the bronx, maybe that could never really be documented on a recording

there's bambaataa's death mix from a school gym, and the (edited) live convention records on disco wax

but like stuff like spoonie g's "love rap" where they substitute live drums for the break is p close prob at least as dope

have you all read "the big payback" by dan charnas yet? i'm only through the first chapter but he covers this era (which i didn't know much about) in a really clear, entertaining way

missing melle mel's fast rap style "freestyle"

― zvookster, Friday, February 11, 2011 8:40 AM Bookmark

Never knew about this joint but this is a dope BDK bite.

heh yeah. i think this tape is p well known http://www.discogs.com/Edan-The-DJ-Fast-Rap/release/245640

masta ace's original letter to the better is another one i like in this style

kool is back >

that's a cool mix thx

while we're derailing, it's yours freestyle, ll kinda showing t la rock is the true father of the late 80s BDK fast rap rhyme density as well as the multi-syllabic lyrically lyrical 90s style.

fuuuuck wow that is amazing, never heard that...man he sounds so young!

My car stereo syncs with my iPod, but the LCD screen can only display the first 8 characters of the artist/song...so Flash always displays as "Grandmas"...always gets a chuckle from me

holy shit at that LL freestyle

deej requests that Duke Bootee be mentioned itt.

RIP Duke Bootee

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/duke-bootee-dead-1115217/

Pretty interesting and somewhat contemporary piece on Bootee in the NY Times in 1984.
https://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/04/arts/the-pop-life-043552.html

RIP. I spoke to him in the 80s sometime for a now out of print article I wrote for Option Magazine. Duke Bootee aka Ed Fletcher had lots of plans and dreams then that did not all quite end up happening, but "The Message" and some of his Sugarhill studio work remains as fitting legacy.

This is the first I've heard of this, but holy shit, Kidd Creole stabbed and killed a homeless man???

Well someone has been watching American Psycho

A DMX drum machine, Duke Bootee on Prophet 5 synthesizer and percussion and Skip Mcdonald on guitar.

how many times does Cowboy need to tell us that he was the Real McCoy?

tbf i need pretty frequent reminders about that.
also it's pretty difficult to keep track of who is running this show and whatever their star sign might be without keeping a spreadsheet

I did recently come across a copy of The Message...these early hip hop albums are pretty interesting since they came at a time when hip hop hadn't really taken off so they did all sorts of things on those albums. they had to have R&B songs on them and for the most part they were terrible. though in this case the one about wanting to meet Stevie Wonder is funny at least. and they harmonize really well!

the entire first side I think is great. even "It's a Shame" which is one of those early rap hybrids with sort of a Sesame Street vibe. the commentary is pretty unsubtle, but are they wrong?? nooooooooo!!! "Scorpio" is still wicked. "She's Fresh" is amazing and I wish they'd recorded a whole album of tracks like that. and "It's Nasty"...surely the first track to sample "Genius of Love"???

funny how when you finally get to "The Message", it's such a tonal shift, unlike anything else on the record

too bad things fell apart so quickly for them. there's so little after this worth checking out. "White Lines" I guess. but maaan those post-Message albums are pretty dire.

Nope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEusjv45hjg

and this, which doesn't count because it's produced by Tom Tom Club, but technically a "cover"/sample/interpolation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OAUwVI9hjY

hah...I stand corrected!

though on the "Dr. Jeckyll & Mr. Hyde" track - it kind of sounds like they re-recorded it themselves? seems like a common thing back in those days - in particular I love this pretty wonky version of "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNrYxJUETgk

also amusing to hear them quote lines from Kurtis Blow/Sugarhill Gang/Furious Five...did rappers really just not have that much to say in those days??

Yeah, sampling was too expensive. Most of those early hip-hop records are replayed. Sugarhill Gang band essentially Tackhead. I think most of the stuff on Profile was Pumpkin, so I'd guess he did that.

actually produced by Eric Matthew of Gary's Gang, so probably him. Same guy who did Gary's Gang' Makin Music Dub Mix, which I've been playing lately.

it would be fun to have a whole thread devoted to these early hip hop re-recordings, especially the more quirky ones

worth including it's weird italian cousin where italo producers did weird stuff like replay Chic's good times while rapping about Rapper's Delight and interpolating Captain Sensible's Wot into it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT3VgJUimXg

The early rap stuff was Sylvia Robinson going into nightclubs and hearing the Dj’s do specific things that would make the crowd react, taking that trick to the sugar hill house band, and telling them to replicate it

It was a little more than just unimaginative covers

And essentially the same formula like, puff daddy would do years later

Yeah, sampling was too expensive. Most of those early hip-hop records are replayed. Sugarhill Gang band essentially Tackhead. I think most of the stuff on Profile was Pumpkin, so I'd guess he did that.

― dan selzer, Tuesday, November 11, 2025 10:06 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

in the early days, if i'm correct, the Fairlight would have been the only sampler available? I think those were like 70K...I assume the advent of sampling starting in the mid-80s was with the advent of more affordable samplers right?

there's a slippery slope. The Fairlight and then Synclavier were mega-expensive, but there started being these much cheaper digital delay units that would let you grab and trigger a snippet, and a lot of very talented folks used these. I think the damn broke around 1984/85 with the Ensoniq Mirage, the Emu Sp-12, the Akai S612.

I wish those days had lasted a little longer. not because the wompy covers of this n' that were funny but also because whatever funk/disco band they got to play on the first Kurtis Blow record was killer. "The Breaks" isn't just known for its vocal hook it's got an excellent groove to it that has been sampled a bunch of times. ditto for "Christmas Rappin". best of all is "Throughout Your Years", which contains a pretty curious lyric:

"Now listen to my story cuz it's got to be told/like an Oscar-winning actor when he's playing a role"

granted his lyrics are always clunky as hell ("Step by step! Day by day! Watch out for obstacles in your way!") but it's funny that he doesn't explicitly name anyone...hip hop is all about name dropping! imagine if Kendrick was like "Tables turned, lesson learned, my best look/You jumped sides on me, now you about to meet an NBA guy"

not on the Breaks but the Sugar Hill house band included Keith LeBlanc from Tackhead and Doug Wimbish future of Living Colour

I can't seemed to find the band on The Breaks, but it was produced by Larry Smith who did the early Run DMC stuff and I believed had been in a funk band called Orange Crush ("Orange Crush became amazed at me" from Sucker MCs)

xpost - thanks dan! that's super interesting

one of the first tracks to show where sampling could go was the Double Dee & Steinski remix of Play That Beat in 1983 aka Lesson 1. They used old school tape editing techniques rather than the upcoming tape editing machines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxZich8UF_E

I met Steinski once, in 2001 or so. I was still djing wed happy hour at Plant Bar and he came on after me. I think Tim Sweeney like interned with him or was hanging out with him or something. Was pretty cool.

was Steinski cutting and taping analog tapes into loops?

no he was just playing records.

Double Dee commented on my blog about this!

Just to set the record straight we used a turntable, a mono reel to reel, a 2 track reel to reel and an 8 track reel to reel machine. Using cassette decks would have been like a ballerina dancing with construction boots. Doug "Double Dee" Di Franco

^very cool to hear from the man himself

Sometimes ilxor Nate Patrin has a terrific book about this btw

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/53111886-bring-that-beat-back

Oh yeah I totally meant to read that

^ one for the back cover blurbs