Dukin' it Out: Post 1980 Neil Young -vs- Post 1980 Lou Reed

Was in a band with Rick James, signed to Motown. Lou Reed can't top that.

listening to "Tonight's The Night" off Live Rust and thinking that it would have been great if Neil in the 80s had done what Lou Reed did on Rock 'N' Roll Animal: taken a few of his "dark" songs and pumped up their arrangements, making them streamlined arena rock. It would have fit with Neil's maximalist thinking through 1987 or so. Like, turn "Tonight's The Night" into a happy pump-your-fist anthem! The Live Rust version (which is fab) gets close to this with the backup vocals, but it's still pretty scuzzy guitar-wise. Clean that up, get a few more back-up singers, and go Vegas. Another model could have been Live At Budokan. Would it have worked? I doubt it! But since when has that stopped Neil?

closest he came was probably the booker t/mgs tour following harvest moon -- backup singers anyway. but when i saw him then the focus was mainly on feeeeeeedback.

yeah, I saw that tour; it was pretty scuzzy iirc (we'd brought a bunch of Crazy Horse malt liquor to the show, lol college/Neil intersection, so I can't really remember the details too well)

Are You Passionate is ~smooth~ but I think it would be cool to hear that kind of arrangement to older songs, the way Dylan and Reed re-imagine their older songs.

"Trans" tour, w/ Nils Lofgren was sort of fist pumping arena rock. Still w/ Neil's guitar playing of course.

Also great btw

Didn't Booker T play on AYP?

huh, I should look for a bootleg of that tour, then; I know a few live version but haven't heard a whole show.

mid 80s crazy horse tours are kind steroid-y arena rock too. certainly not very slick though.

I've got the video! (xp)

(and yeah, most of AYP is booker t/mgs, iirc)

yes, AYP features Booker T & the MGs plus Crazy Horse iirc

I really like that record a lot & think it's a sleeper in Neil's catalog.

lots of rong at the top of this thread.

was looking for video of that trans tour but found this instead lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXeBpvCxro

I have a bootleg of a 1986 show; maybe I got it from you, tyler? I've not listened yet, but will in the next few weeks (am finishing a massive year-long "listen to everything I presently have" & all that's left are Neil, Prince, REM + Miles Davis, which I put off b/c of how much I have by all those artists, so it was daunting to get started with them)(yes, this is a crazy thing to do, never mind that)

Now that ATP can be found for under a buck I might check it out. I liked Rob Sheffield's review at the time: giving Neil a real band was like giving a gorilla a Palm Pilot.

'differently' is great

yeah, that and "goin home" are my faves from "passionate"

lots of rong at the top of this thread.

ugh yeah jesus christ. mark s was a good poster but man did I disagree with him about nearly everything

The real question here is which embarrassing "socially conscious" misstep invokes the bigger cringe: "Rockin' in the Free World" or "Dirty Boulevard?"

"We got department stores and toilet paper
Got styrofoam boxes for the ozone layer
Got a man of the people, says keep hope alive
Got fuel to burn, got roads to drive."

vs.

"Give me your hungry, your tired your poor I'll piss on 'em
that's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses, let's club 'em to death
and get it over with and just dump 'em on the boulevard"

lots of rong at the top of this thread.

― Would love to hear Bam babble about this (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, July 22, 2010 3:33 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

pretty much true for every classic rock thread started before 2005/6ish

this is such a great opening lyrically:

Caught between the twisted stars
the plotted lines the faulty map
that brought Columbus to New York

rockin in the free world has fantastic lyrics imo

I've got no quarrel with either one. HOWEVER:

http://www.spike.com/video/lou-reed-original/2791259

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6Q4O5TeuE

definitely agree with iatee about RITFW's lyrics. I was learning to play it out of idle curiosity a few weeks back and was really struck by how well it works lyrically, super-sharp.

Dirty Boulevard is also probably the best track on New York (apart from Romeo and Juliet) but it's maybe a bit hammier/more sledgehammer obvious than Rockin in the Free World...? Lou doesn't really do nuance too well, and RITFW has this distance in it where you can't really tell which parts of it are earnest and which parts are sarcastic/ironic

I wouldn't call either a misstep.

I see a woman in the night
With a baby in her hand
Under an old street light
Near a garbage can
Now she puts the kid away,
and she's gone to get a hit
She hates her life,
and what she's done to it
There's one more kid
that will never go to school
Never get to fall in love,
never get to be cool

the nihilism and despair in this verse gets me every time - it doesn't have the bitter smirk that Dirty Blvd does, it's just straight up sad.

yeah neil young's best lyrics are always ambiguous

but yeah 'never get to fall in love, never get to be cool' is heartbreaking

can't think of anyone else who would phrase it like that, ya know?

as far as ironic 80s singalong choruses go "free world" might beat out "born in the usa"

yeah they're definitely a pair

"Mideast Vacation" is hilarious, and ambiguous in the context Neil's political leanings in the early 80s.

xpost is there a thread for that kind of thing? you know, the kind of 80s bitter, disenchanted lyrical content masked by a rousing arena-ready chorus? thinking of things like "rebel" by tom petty ...

(and yeah, mideast vacation is bizarre -- weird, 80s fever dream thing)

I dunno, I think you can say that dylan/young came out of a certain musical tradition (/and created some new ones) and when they decided to go country it was something of a conscious decision to switch to a different tradition w/ a certain artistic goal in mind. I don't think that's a bad thing or anything, but I also think that on some level when an artist quickly appropriates a huge tradition like that, it feels fake on some level. but dylan is fake on all levels anyway.

i dunno, i think Nashville Skyline is Dylan's only really country album

I don't know the record, but isn't Self-Portrait all Nashville studio musicians...?

xpost yeah, but at the same time, if you looked at dylan and young's earliest influences, ten to one they'd be country music. all kinds of hanks, i think is how Dylan described it.

tbh Young never understood country (neither did Dylan, to a lesser extent). When they Sit Down And Play a country song they sound obtuse and patronizing.

"betrayed" from alfred's beloved Legendary Hearts ...

I love this one least of my children.

well, self portrait has tracks with the Band, too. but it's mainly session guys, yeah. xpost

i don't know, i think Dylan and Young *understand* country music fine, but maybe when they approach it as a "genre" they lose something. like, listening to Young play "Too Far Gone" recently, I thought he captured perfectly this lovesick Hank Williams vibe, without explicitly writing a "Country" song.

I don't think the Band ever really understood country music either, at least not as pop music: there is always a distance there (hence the historical tropes in Robertson's songwriting, & the abstractness of Manuel's): but they picked up on something pretty closely related, with the blues & folk mixed together.

but dylan is fake on all levels anyway.

i never understand this argument; as if pop music hasn't been appropriated from any and all sources going back to the nineteenth century at least
xpost

They understand country music as a kind of folk music, rather than pop music...though those categories are somewhat suspect, I think the point's clear: more Hank Williams than Patsy Cline, say.

yeah, well put. It's like they have an idealized folk version of what country is that doesn't really encompass a lot of actual country artists/albums, it's kinda narrowly defined for them (Dylan leaning towards Hank Williams and maybe Hank Snow and Lefty Frizzell, Neil leaning more towards the Willie Nelson/Waylon Jennings axis). But when they "went country" they didn't particularly approximate the sounds of country records very well, imho.

xp

Comes A Time comes off best because it's a pop-inflected country move. It's what he knows!

I don't want to bang on about Neil and Reagan anymore but I was away from the thread for an hour and this quote…

But because I agreed with that one thing and similar types of points

…is very disingenous. In various 80s interviews he approved loudly of Reagan's belligerent foreign policy, criticised welfare recipients and said some very odd things about people with HIV. Fair enough if he subsequently changed his mind but it's pretty weak to pretend he only liked Reagan as a cosy community organiser.

On an entirely different matter, why did all rock veterans have to look like shit during the 80s? That Lou Reed cover is crushingly banal.

i never understand this argument; as if pop music hasn't been appropriated from any and all sources going back to the nineteenth century at least

right but you can still have different levels of appropriation

"Four Strong Wings" and "Field of Opportunity" aside, this is late seventies studio rock with banjos and fiddles.

On an entirely different matter, why did all rock veterans have to look like shit during the 80s?

One exception, as usual:

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/85027592.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5482CA6EE0EB59BFEBCB703012D8F8D23294FA8F46D09BE28AD

On an entirely different matter, why did all rock veterans have to look like shit during the 80s? That Lou Reed cover is crushingly banal.

also generally made their worst music

lou's old buddy was looking good
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii111/diskochimp/CaleSunset-1.jpg

they definitely lose the pop end of country - which, tbh, is a HUGE swath of it. All those backing choruses, swelling string ensembles, pedal steel licks, short verse-chorus-verse structures, concise vocal hooks, tight guitar picking etc. These are not the things Bob and Neil are particularly interested in or good at

why did all rock veterans have to look like shit during the 80s

lol this is a whole other thread!

cale was so far ahead of his time -- he could be in a chillwave band!

late seventies studio rock with banjos and fiddles.

you could say the same thing of a lot of recent country music.

lol at the shirt with geometric patterns. Very eighties!

All those backing choruses, swelling string ensembles, pedal steel licks, short verse-chorus-verse structures, concise vocal hooks, tight guitar picking etc.
well, this is kinda what Old Ways is like, except sucktastic.

you could say the same thing of a lot of recent country music.

mmmmmm yes and no. "Some of it." Another "some" dig mid to late seventies FM stuff with power chords.

There's an Old Ways song on Lucky Thirteen which is the worst thing I've ever heard. I mean -- worse than the stentorian Aldo Nova clones on Landing on Water.

underrated cale album btw

mmmmmm yes and no. "Some of it." Another "some" dig mid to late seventies FM stuff with power chords.

well yes of course. and some dig kelly clarkson and ashlee simpson. i'm just saying that neil is/was a lot closer to at least some elements of country music and nashville than a lot of people are giving him credit for. he may or may not actually be trying; that's kind of beside the point.

also, some people (Neil and Bob) just don't fit neatly into categories, in general...
had that Cale on cassette once. played it once. i loathed it.

It takes a magic touch to play music you think is kinda hokey w/o seeming distant, and I think Neil (and Dylan) don't usually have this touch. It's what I hate about bands like the Beachwood Sparks, who friends tried to turn me onto in the late 90s. What's interesting to me is why they want to play country, anyway. I understand that an easy answer is, "because it sounds great & it's fun to play". But their songwriting changes when they write country songs, so I'd like to understand better what it is about the "country voice" that appeals to them. I think I'd better understand why they fail at country if I understood that better.

it's not immediately likeable or as good as his classic material but there are a lot of interesting ideas in it. cale's always been a solid songwriter and most of his bad 80s songs sound much better w/ alternate arrangements.

xp

always loved the title track of caribbean sunset ...

i think Dylan and Young *understand* country music fine, but maybe when they approach it as a "genre" they lose something

Absolutely agree. I'm not a fan of country music newer than late-'60s Johnny Cash, and probably shouldn't wade into this discussion, but when Neil tried to make an Official Country Album with Old Ways, the result was predictably bland and pointless. When he was doing "The Emperor of Wyoming" and "Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere" and his Don Gibson cover--not to mention Harvest's best songs, and "Bad Fog of Loneliness," and "Albuquerque"--he had his own version of country that was just great.

man I find 'bad fog of loneliness' to be such a boring song, I dunno way

why

love that song -- "come back, maybe I was wrong!" ha.

Bad Fog, get back here and set this man straight!

'm just saying that neil is/was a lot closer to at least some elements of country music and nashville than a lot of people are giving him credit for

Never said he wasn't! But, as has been remarked already, his music is stronger when he produces an amalgram of folk and country than when he's reproducing straight country.

Bad Fog, get back here and set this man straight!

What can I say, I think it has a great melody and expresses a vulnerability in a way that only Neil can. Would have made a great addition to Harvest. But I can see how some might find it a bit hippy-dippy.

there is no commonsense, sane approach to politics that allows you to support reagan in any way

Only if you ignore the semiotics of the presidency, of which Reagan was a master -- and, let's not forget, with rare exceptions, signs and symbols are all that comprise a presidency. Lots of people my parents' age who aren't Corner-ites still remember him fondly.

right, I mean he supported the idea of reagan and didn't care about the details - basically was an average american in the 80s

If I may weigh in....

80s: Lou Reed. The Blue Mask alone is enough to seal it. I love Freedom and some random 80s Neil songs like Mideast Vacation and Wonderin', but Lou had the hot hand in the 80s. We'll forgive that godawful motor scooter commercial... "Hey...don't settle for walkin."

90s: Neil Young. Lou had a rough 90s, and Neil really got cooking, in a musical sense. I'm The Ocean alone is enough.

So we go to the tiebreaker:

2000s: Neil. No record was as good as Lou's Ecstasy from 2000, but Lou sat the rest of the decade out, while Neil was flying under the radar with some hot stuff.

The winner: Neil Young

That's about right. '70s Neil >>>>> '70s Lou

and

'80s Lou >>>>>>>> '80s Neil, except Freedom >>>>>>>>>>>> New York

In the nineties it's more complicated. Neil made two great to excellent albums (Ragged Glory and Sleeps with Angels), one boring one beloved by a lot of people (Harvest Moon), and a lot of throat-clearing, some of which is great ("I'm the Ocean").

Lou meanwhile recorded Songs For Drella and Set the Twilight Reeling in the win pile. A draw that decade, I'd say.

Good point about the 70s, but...

60s Lou >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>x10 billion 60s Neil.

Tough to compete with the Velvet Underground.

i grew up listening to a cassette of landing on water on road trip to san diego; so i've got a fair bit of nostalgic affection towards it.. i love how un-calibrated and off-center it sounds. the overall production values/loud-ass gated drums clashing with neil's distorted guitar tone.

i'm glad "hippie dream" was brought up; always thought it was his best 80s song pre-Freedom. i love "violent side" as well.. a great evocation of the struggle to recognize and overcome anger. and oh my.. "weight of the world"... the imbalance of the mix (as well as the slightly fucked up drum pattern) inadvertently heightens the 'shuffle my feet'/'dance all night' verse struggle.

as far as life goes, "long walk home" is a great bombastic precursor to the kind of thing he would do on freedom. and, yeah, "mideast vacation" is a great weird thing.

Yesterday I said that Neil & Dylan both fail to understand country music as pop music, & that this is why both struggle to make good country music. I think I can make the point I was trying to articulate better as follows. For both Neil & Dylan I think they understand country music nostalgically: that is, to play it is to interact with a music of their past. Whereas others in their age cohort---think of Dolly Parton & Johnny Cash---who do understand country music, don't understand it reactively like this: instead, it's just what they do. Whatever they do is country. That's something they might struggle against at times, since it puts their art in a box. But it's a different relationship to the music than Neil & Bob have.

In the case of Neil in particular, it's not just nostalgia for the (idealized) country music of his youth, it's nostalgia for the people he's played music (not just country music) with before. So you get latter-day songs like "Buffalo Springfield Again", and that whole album which is played with people like Ben Keith that he's been playing with his whole career, and reuniting the Harvest band for Harvest Moon. Actually, lots of Neil's career moves are nostalgic like this: getting Crazy Horse together repeatedly, or playing with CSNY again & again. & what I'm suggesting is that Neil's approach to country music is about this nostalgic urge. & as a result he doesn't really understand country music, since this isn't all there is to country music.

as a result he doesn't really understand country music

i think you're trying too hard to ascribe particular intentions to neil's music (not to mention johnny cash's or dolly parton's music). with the arguable exception of the genre exercise old ways, i doubt he sits down with a guitar or piano and says, "i shall now write a country song" or "i shall now make a country album." he makes neil young songs and neil young albums. there's no doubt a lot of nostalgia in there. a lot of folk and rock influences. a lot of stock chord changes and melodic ticks he keeps coming back to. a lot of hippie dreams. but to suggest he doesn't understand country music because "heart of gold" or "comes a time" or "harvest moon" don't sound like patsy cline or crystal gayle or randy travis or jamey johnson or whatever it we think they're supposed to sound like ... seems very strange to me.

man i dunno cuz i pretty much fuckin' love nashville skyline, so breezy

Going back to Neil's politics. I'm not well versed on all of it, but perhaps some of his political ambiguity stems from his Prairie upbringing in Canada. Politics in this part of the country have often swung madly from conservative to very social liberal. Its generally seen as the redneck wild west and our current conservative prime minister is from here, but its also the home of our most liberal political party (the NDP via the old CCF). I have no idea how much of that stuff shaped his youth of even what his father's politic views are, but its a thought.

his father was pretty well known as a writer in his day in canada, not sure what his politics are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Young_%28writer%29

Yeah I have a copy of Neil and Me, but haven't read it yet. I was under the impression he is best known for sports writing so maybe he's not very politically minded anyway.

Scott Young was primarily a hockey writer. That's what we write about here in Canada.