Please explain to me the song-writing credit process

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I've always been confused about what it means to get credited for writing a song. Take for example "Landslide" by Fleetwood Mac. Stevie Nicks receives the parenthetical credit -- is this only because she wrote the lyrics and chord progressions? Certainly Lindsey came up with the guitar part, and the other band members probably chipped in their parts. So it seems to me that it's more of collective process.....

And who decides who receives credit anyway? The group members themselves?

(Excuse my massive ignorance)

PB, Wednesday, 7 September 2005 17:57 (twenty years ago)

My understanding is you get 50% for writing the lyrics and 50% for writing the music and 0% for guitar solos, basslines, etc.

k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I've always wondered about this too... Do "performers" - as opposed to "writers" - get smaller royalties, or do they get royalties at all?

(x-post)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

That's the "standard" but rules can be bent to fit group format. U2 spilt songwriting four ways, to keep the band together.

Old School (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:05 (twenty years ago)

I assume the group members decide, due to the fact that Lennon and McCartney agreed to share the credits equally no matter who actually wrote what.

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:05 (twenty years ago)

Songwriting royalties, they get nothing. BUT...in the old days performers and record biz moguls would stick their names on AS songwriters so they COULD collect this money that was not theirs.

k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

Mark E Smith is infamous for sprinkling credit around willy-nilly regardless of who wrote what or not.
in "Dig!" Courtney Taylor boasts of giving the band a 25% cut of songwriting despite the fact he "Writes all the songs, ALL the songs."

Old School (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:10 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I believe "Be-Bop-A-Lula" is credited to Gene Vincent and some sleazy DJ who offered Gene some help in return for a half-credit.

(xpost)

PB, Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:10 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I think mostly group members decide. We decided to have all our songs credited to the band, even though certain members are more involved in the actual songwriting process. Our liner notes mention that one person writes all the lyrics, but this isn't reflected in our ASCAP status.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:11 (twenty years ago)

Some bands are democratic, like you say. But I think there have been cases where somebody, just not the songwriters of the group, say the rhythm section, was jamming on something which later became a song but they ended up getting no credit, because they didn't really come up with the melody and write the fancy chord changes at the bridge.

k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:15 (twenty years ago)

Doesn't (or didn't) Dick Clark have a credit on Maybelline or some such?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:18 (twenty years ago)

Alan Freed

Old School (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:20 (twenty years ago)

There's the songwriters' own decisions about how to register percentages, as discussed above, but then there's also what I think gets called a "moral" interest in the work -- i.e., if I was jamming with John and Paul and came up with the riff from "Ticket to Ride," I will always have a legitimate claim to a stake in the rights, even if I signed some horrible deal stating otherwise. I think the default consideration for this stuff is that the courts aren't in the highly-esoteric business of sorting out which parts of a song are "important" to the song's success, so really anyone who can demonstrate that he/she contributed a reasonably-significant element is entitled to an equal-type share.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

Last night my band sat around arguing about a partnership agreement. :(

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:37 (twenty years ago)

I was thinking in particular of "Jumpin Jack Flash," the main riff of which Bill Wyman claims he came up with, but was never given credit for.


Also see the O'Jays' "For The Love Of Money," where history was made (was it ever repeated?) when Anthony Jackson was given songwriting credit for his bassline.

k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

The UK musicians union FAQ has some interesting stuff about this, but it seems to be unavailable, except in the google cache.

k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:54 (twenty years ago)

bobby valentino to thread. with his bloody fiddle.

the whole sorry tale

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 18:56 (twenty years ago)

Way of solving that sort of problem: paperwork indicates that anything session players play that artists didn't write constitutes an "improvisation" on the song's pre-established themes (or an "arrangement" thereof).

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 19:26 (twenty years ago)

Isn't "music" in the usual sense defined as chords + melody? So if you write those you've written the music (as opposed to coming up with a bass line, drum part, etc.)

Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)

"songwriting" yeah, but not "music"

Old School (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)

where is geir when you need him?

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:23 (twenty years ago)

I think originally it was, yes, chords + melody -- i.e., whatever would go on the basic sheet music, with everything else falling into the category of "arrangement." (This way of looking at songs is really fascinating to me, actually -- this sort of standards-based idea of the song as having a core and then interpretations of detail and style and so on.) But that ceased to be tenable pretty quickly, and if the coffin on bass/drums hadn't been entirely nailed shut by the 80s, hip-hop (and related intellectual-property discussions) proved a recognizable bass line was just as protectable as a vocal hook. Drummers get a bit screwed, what with beats being all free-and-public -- although if they tuned and pitched their drums to create melodic effects, maybe they could give it a shot!

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:23 (twenty years ago)

(Chords + melody = hence the issue of publishers and publishing rights; the "song" as literally what'd be on the for-sale sheet music.)

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

Something tells me Damo Suzuki didn't walk off with 50% for "writing" the "words" to those Can songs.

Old School (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:26 (twenty years ago)

I heard electronic beatmakers still get screwed a lot of the time, unless they can blag much coveted "producer's points".

blunt (blunt), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

It's an anachronistic system, formulated in a time when songwriters, arrangers and performers worked completely separately and rarely even met. Although, of course, there are still spheres of pop music where the system fundamentally still exists.

But as far as a self-contained, songwriting band works, yeah, basically they get together and confer/argue over who did how much on what song and who should get their name on it. Songwriting royalties and performance royalties are separate things - not only is songwriting (publishing) money separate, but you get it faster. And that's why Pete Townshend was doing pretty well in the early '70s but did a few Who tours for no other reason than to keep John Entwistle and Keith Moon out of the workhouse. It's also why groups such as U2 and the DLR-era Van Halen (I dunno about later) credited all song to everyone - so that everyone in the band would be making the same money.

Something tells me Damo Suzuki didn't walk off with 50% for "writing" the "words" to those Can songs.

It's not a 50/50 words/music thing; every name on the songwriting credits gets an equal share. Unless they contractually agree otherwise, which I imagine can happen.

I heard electronic beatmakers still get screwed a lot of the time, unless they can blag much coveted "producer's points".

I wondered about that. Can't they get songwriting credit? I think they do in most cases, don't they?

Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:37 (twenty years ago)

http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/html/advice_faqs_10.html

k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:38 (twenty years ago)

for credit obsessives (like me), madness's stuff is wonderful. IIRC they'd credit separately for words and music, so you'd have credits such as "smyth/barson/smyth", and if you're really sad you can whittle it down and work out exactly who wrote what. (plus the liner notes on the best-ofs usually make it all very clear anyway.)

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)

Sometimes I wish that my band did get ultra-specific about it! I mean, I don't know that there's a single song of ours where we don't all contribute at least a small amount (even if that's just figuring out what violin notes you can play that go with the chords on the chorus). But there are songs that are more distinctly one person's, especially in the song's initial stages. On our new album, I think 5 of the 13 songs originated with chord structures that I brought to the band. So I mean you could conceivably credit those to me. At the same time, by the time the song is completed, it tends to not be entirely my own vision, anyway (case in point, some chords I wrote that I intended to sound like the High Llamas ended up more Spoon-ish when the whole song was finished), so it makes just as much sense for me to give up ownership.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 21:30 (twenty years ago)

The problem with getting that ultra-specific is that it can render bandmembers unwilling to have their ideas changed in the creative process, unwilling to lose credit.

Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

IIRC they'd credit separately for words and music, so you'd have credits such as "smyth/barson/smyth", and if you're really sad you can whittle it down and work out exactly who wrote what.

that is fascinating and fun stuff indeed for credit junkies. like me. but, for whatever it's worth, legally it doesn't make a whit of a difference exactly who wrote what. if a song is legally credited to, say, bacharach/david, then burt has as much of a legal right to the lyrics as hal does, and hal has as much of a legal right to the music as burt does, even though everybody knows who did what. it's like a house: you might have built and paid for the living room and the kitchen and your partner might have built and paid for the bedrooms and bathrooms, but once you move in together, you both own a share of everything.

i always admired the blasters' method, which was to publicly credit all songs to dave alvin, who wrote the words and chord changes, but to divide the publishing equally among all four bandmembers, as an acknowledgment that performance and arrangement are an integral part of the pop songwriting process.

and then there was pavement's method, which (at least for most of their albums) was to offer no songwriting credits at all, but to make careful note of which publishing company published which song, which any fan could easily translate to who wrote what.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 22:08 (twenty years ago)

it's not all that different than writing and producing credits for movies, except that hollywood has a union system to work all that stuff out. who really writes movies anyway? the guy who comes up with the idea? the guy who writes the first draft of the script? the guy who rewrites the script? the guy who rewrites the rewrite? the director who abandons the script as soon as he starts shooting? the actor who starts improvising? the special-effects guy who invents all the cool stuff that people actually want to see?

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 7 September 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)

It's not a 50/50 words/music thing; every name on the songwriting credits gets an equal share. Unless they contractually agree otherwise, which I imagine can happen

Also IIRC, If you collaborate with another person, where you write the lyrics while they compose the music, but they get cold feet and walk away and get someone else to write alternative lyrics, you still get half of your collaborators royalties. Obv. this only works if you sit down and write the song together, not if you write lyrics to pre-composed music.

Ben Dot (1977), Thursday, 8 September 2005 00:42 (twenty years ago)

Now, howbout those weird occasions when a band switches from shared credit to individual composer credits - is that a sign of disharmony within the band? (The Doors did that between their third & fourth LPs; can't think of any others offhand but there must be some, right?)

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Thursday, 8 September 2005 01:11 (twenty years ago)

As mentioned above, the band decides (argues) together about who gets what and then registers this with the publishers etc. This can lead to some weird situations like the one rumored to going on with G 'N R right now. Axl apparantly went to ASCAP or something and changed the writing credits for the whole back catalog to him instead of himself, Slash and Duff. Cue Slash's lawyer rising from the sea with a lawsuit in hand.

What it says on the record doesn't really matter. I think all the Strokes songs are credited to Julian on the albums for example but at the publisher's, all the members are credited equally and thus get paid equally.

It's a good policy if you want your band's original line up to be in it for the long haul (Pulp, Sloan etc) in my opinion.

Pharmaceutical Executive, Thursday, 8 September 2005 15:31 (twenty years ago)


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