Music and Politics: Keep 'em seperate?

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For my sins I bought the NME the other week and someone had written in claiming that bands with nothing to say about the world political situation have nothing to say about anything. I thought the writer had a point.

Given the warped political worldview presented by the advertising-driven media, do musicians have any responsibility to counter it?

― Chris, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Is it 'one' worldview and is it warped? Advertisers know more about the world than musicians, who insist on having opinions on things when the vast majority are still polishing their boots with manure.

― dave q, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

implication: advertisers warp and twist world, musicians can counter by revealing the 'truth'/'how it really is', but how is this the 'truth' and not just another 'warped' take?

― gareth, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

" [people] with nothing to say about the world political situation have nothing to say about anything": ppl say this kind of thing to excuse themselves the chore of convincing the unconvinced, of actually demonstrating that THEY THEMSELVES have anything much to say. It translates as: "If you were worth bothering with, you would already be saying what I'm saying" — which is to say, it is pretty much the OPPOSITE of politics, despite its opinion of itself.

― mark s, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Musicians are as competent as anyone else to talk about the world political situation. That said if I wanted to talk about the world political situation I can think of better ways to do it than in a rock song.

Gareth and DQ are right - advertisers do understand a truth about the world (that truth also being expressed in yr post i.e. "I bought"). The problem I was worrying over in the bath yesterday was: is acknowledging the complexity and grey-ness of moral and political issues the easy route to not doing anything about them? I'm always annoyed about people with an us-and-them worldview, the degree of annoyance ranging from quibbling irritation (most leftists, say) to impotent horror (George W. Bush, say) depending on the level of power these people have access too. But all of them seem to get more done than I do with my equivocation.

― Tom, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Tom, I think you do yourself down. At least a willingness to discuss these issues is in itself doing something. Working in a tiny political system which may not mirror but suffers from similar problems as all politial structures I do get things done occasionally just because the discussion has thrown up novel ways of tackling a problem.

What annoys me is the knee jerk assumption that people who disagree are bad, evil or even have opposite aims. Most people in government are there to help people, it is just that they have differing views on how this can be done. This turns it from an us vs them dichotomy to a multi-leveled discussion.

Do musicians have any special responsibility. No. Only the same responsibility we all have.

― Pete, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Most people in government are there to help people, it is just that they have differing views on how this can be done."

HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!

― Vadgemonkey the Bilious One-Man Army, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

**The problem I was worrying over in the bath yesterday was: is acknowledging the complexity and grey-ness of moral and political issues the easy route to not doing anything about them?**

Tom, may I suggest Tesco's 'Unwind' foaming bubbles? They come in a cool glass bottle and are a nice cobalt blue. £3.99, I think.

― Dr. C, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What with Civ III, the Playstation and the Interweb the bath is the only place I am still capable of serious thought Dr C - DONT TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME!

― Tom, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

people with nothing to think about in the bath have nothing to say about anything

― mark s, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What is 'bath'?

― dave q, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's near Bristol, isn't it?

― Matt DC, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

its hard to say whether musicians have any responsibility to be political or counter the monosemy we tend to get from the media... one one hand they could do what we do..in the end we all have opinions and i guess we try to get people to think the same, and react against what we are told. we should all be politically aware, but if they want to use their position in songs, or interviews if thats not their style, thats good, but probably not their responsibility.. after all why should we listen to their view over someone elses, surely we should find out ourselves and see through the bias. on the other hand some people need to be shown things, but maybe these people are sheep and will believe virtually everything.

ok cos i'm finding it hard to organise my thoughts and make sense i'll just say maybe its not their responibility to make people aware just because they're famous or known for doing something else (music) although its good if they make people think (in some way at least), and that i think we're all responsible for ourselves. its just a shame some people don't seem to realise this, and never try to seek the truth... i hope that made sense.

― fran, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Musicians who address politics too directly are much more often than not misunderstanding both politics and art. The hip hop idiom accomodates this better, I think. I'm not saying that music shouldn't be political - not at all - but I think that in expressing any idea, you have to respect the way music (or any medium) works, and the acts I can think of who are perceived as political first don't seem to have thought much about that.

― Feather T., Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I suppose what I'm getting at is that politically-conscious musicians with a certain degree of fame can reach a far wider audience than, say, politically-conscious milkmen and that perhaps that in itself confers a certain amount of responsibility. If people aren't even aware of important issues that the mass media suppress then there won't be much pressure on the government to address those issues.

I'm not suggesting that musicians have a greater grasp of the big picture than anyone else, but I am saying that the mass media HAS to present an especially warped worldview because it makes most of its money from advertising revenues.

― Chris, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Since I do not have any way of differentiating manipulative politicising of lyrics from sincere attempt of changing opinion I would rather like the apparent lack of concern.(for politics)

― Atul, Monday, 18 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Fair enough, silly question I s'pose.

― Chris, Tuesday, 19 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

nine months pass...

i stopped reading way up at the top;
lots of postmodern garble about the self and the other and the spectrum of political thought from left to right (musicians vs politicians);
postmodernism was intended to free the self from the other;
other people may have differing truths but if these are always defined as oppositional and not living breathing entities within themselves, than, we will never get out of the evil cycle of ruining our environments and our nervous systems leading to computers that do things better than we do cycle, nor wittgenstein's language game (just cuz' we can't make our way through our political structures, blah blah blah);

musicians sing soul and life far better than politicans do.
i think music is political by its very essence even when the lyrics are apathetic (scuse the judgment)

namaste

― Sara, Sunday, 1 December 2002 06:12 (twenty-three years ago)

when i look back at the beatles and so many other 'sixties bands there's a general political competence, or an acknowledgement at least of the political climate -- maybe this was the first time that mass-circulated 'entertainment' (pop groups rather than newspapers) believed perhaps somewhat naively that they/it had some role to play -- so some music from then commented on wider political developements, from casually acknowledging some new dawn in humanity (jefferson airplane) through to pointing fingers at specific problems (the beatles' 'lady madonna' is one good example) -- the 'sixties were the first time this happened en masse in an uncontrived way in the world media
the singer/songwriter time had songs with some political bite, although crosby, stills & nash fans might have been correctly labelled the weekend pepsi-generation -- i still think joni mitchell effected millions of peoples' thinking then for the better, however she looks now
certainly the punk time was a time where there were renewed attempts to politicise music, sometimes childishly or cynically but sometimes convincingly
a bit later on even r.e.m. music had some political invective

today any political rhetoric seems to be sidelined -- there are no new bob dylans in the charts, angry young people are cult acts beyond the interest of most student/college radio -- i think this is a great loss -- today politics is something people do not want to include in their busy schedules, something people would rather not have in their musical intake, their reading, their leisure

this may sound a bit general, but i think the change of attitude in favour of politically neutral music, rap music about looking after no.1, pop music about boys and girls, this is a trend that bothers me -- i don't care if pop music can't actually change anything, but i wish it would try and change the mind of some people out there or maybe just convince people to think about things for themselves -- the last thirty years have seen politics pushed right back to the margins of popular music in the wake of the '60s, punk, feminism (for example)
we've ended up with bands that don't seem to have anything to say anymore (except to alienated teenagers) -- the 'culture' is the news-on-tv or the drop-out for the weekend disco party -- something is missing

― george gosset (gegoss), Sunday, 1 December 2002 07:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Chris: For my sins I bought the NME the other week and someone had written in claiming that bands with nothing to say about the world political situation have nothing to say about anything. I thought the writer had a point.
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Musicians that have interest in politics have no right to speak. But I also refuse to accept the counter-argument that musicians who DO have political opinions should just shut the hell up and stick to love songs.
Musicians should be allowed to write about whatever interests them. I say, If you are obsessed with the ozone layer, write songs about the friggin ozone layer. If you're obsessed with spanking your monkey, write songs about spanking your monkey. Enthusiasm is good for music, and a musician can't really get enthused about crap he doesn't care about.
Chris: Given the warped political worldview presented by the advertising-driven media, do musicians have any responsibility to counter it?
Thats the job of humanity in general, not just musicians.
dave q: Is it 'one' worldview and is it warped? Advertisers know more about the world than musicians....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
who insist on having opinions on things when the vast majority are still polishing their boots with manure.
Two rebuttals:
1) This assertion applies to every person on earth.
2) Those boots *are* called shitkickers....

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 16:26 (twenty-three years ago)

"Lord" Custos: "That's the job of humanity in general, not just musicans"

You clearly haven't read what I posted later on:

"I suppose what I'm getting at is that politically-conscious musicians with a certain degree of fame can reach a far wider audience than, say, politically-conscious milkmen and that perhaps that in itself confers a certain amount of responsibility. If people aren't even aware of important issues that the mass media suppress then there won't be much pressure on the government to address those issues."

George Michael released a single (though not in the US the schmuck, or was it record label pressure?) comparing our loveable Butcher Blair to Bush's pet poodle. Whilst that may not be groundbreaking as far as as the politically aware and 'media-savvy' are concerned, at least he made the effort, whereas a 'serious' band like, uh, I don't know, RADIOHEAD who are brainbox Chomsky readers to a man say extremely little of substance as regards the world political situation, except that, you know, they're not really comfortable with it all.

The repellantly rich excepted, who is?

I confess I had Radiohead in mind when I initially posted this question because their website has numerous links to left-wing NGOs but in their lyrics, they don't really wear their heart on their sleeve. I read one review of the band that said something like 'Well the lyrics don't mean shit and thank god! what with the media telling us what to think all the time what we REALLY need right now is a band that says exactly fuck all and leaves it up to us to work out what we think'. I'm sorry that I can't provide you with a web reference but that kind of attitude sucks, it's just the hippy "everything's groovy" attitude inverted to "everything sucks" and whilst I really do love the band (and other bands that 'say' precisely fuck all eg Cocteau Twins) I think they now have a definite responsibility to SPEAK FOR A GENERATION.

Or are they turning into Tory voters like Chris Martin?

― chris sallis, Wednesday, 4 December 2002 20:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Chris Martin is a natural Tory, yes, but then he'd have been indocrinated into it, if I know Sherborne School well enough.

I'm surprised I never answered this thread; was I in one of my hibernations from ILX when it started? Of course I've never kept them separate - in fact I'm somewhat notorious for it :). At the moment I'm writing a piece drawing analogies between Crispian Mills' attempts to "reclaim" the swastika and the way that an ageing-hippie friend of mine on Usenet can seemingly find some common ground with a rabid neo-Nazi conspiracy theorist (always going on about Blair being a "Marxist" who promotes "racial integrationist propaganda") on there - they don't show the utter hatred for each other that exists between me and said neo-Nazi. The use of "Lyke Wake Dirge" by the arch-Tory Antonia Forest a decade before the Pentangle took it on will be mentioned. Read into that what you will ...

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Thursday, 5 December 2002 06:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Robin C: a question for you.

A long time ago, on a Bacharach / David thread I think, you said that Dusty S's 'I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself' was the sound of old Britain breaking up - or something similar. I never quite knew why that particular track should have that significance for you. I played it today and was reminded of your comment. Any more explanation?

― the pinefox, Thursday, 5 December 2002 14:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Reynard I am v. tired at the moment, so can't really say much, but yes I vaguely remember saying this. I think it was the emotionalism of the vocal coupled with the poise of the arrangement that did it. Almost too perfect for 1964.

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Thursday, 5 December 2002 22:07 (twenty-three years ago)

You clearly haven't read what I posted later on:
True. True. I quickly grunted out my response to the part of your post that grabbed my attention and then got distracted by another thread.

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Thursday, 5 December 2002 23:35 (twenty-three years ago)

"I'm not suggesting that musicians have a greater grasp of the big picture than anyone else, but I am saying that the mass media HAS to present an especially warped worldview because it makes most of its money from advertising revenues."

Essentially true but music also faces similar commercial pressures. At least in the US, top selling albums are generally not overtly political, and I would suspect that the larger record companies (company? have they all merged yet?) discourage bands from moving in that direction. Besides niche artists like Tracy Chapman and others flogged in mags like Mother Jones, I agree that overt political speech in music is becoming rarer (don't see too many Midnight Oils these days). However, I suspect that some artists have either consciously or subconsciously sidled away from such issues as to craft music that is more accessible and thus more likely to sell.

― webcrack (music=crack), Friday, 6 December 2002 00:14 (twenty-three years ago)

(don't see too many Midnight Oils these days).
Yeah, Peter Garrett has quit. There probably isn't ANY Midnight Oil after this.

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Saturday, 7 December 2002 16:09 (twenty-three years ago)

there was a brief period (1988-1989) when 3 rock "dinosaurs" -- Lou Reed, Neil Young, and Frank Zappa -- all released records with explicitly political themes (New York, Freedom, and Broadway the Hard Way, respectively). all of these records in reaction to the worst excesses of the Reagan-Poppy Bush years, and arguably the best records any of the foregoing had released in years.

kinda surprising how little mention that mini-phenomenon gets these days.

― Tad (llamasfur), Saturday, 7 December 2002 21:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Here, Here. Kudos to Tad for seeing the silver lining to partisan whining.

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Saturday, 7 December 2002 21:15 (twenty-three years ago)

do musicians have any responsibility to counter it?

musicians + ANY responsibility = dooooooooooom!

― Curtis Stephens, Sunday, 8 December 2002 02:25 (twenty-three years ago)

YES

― Tom Millar (Millar), Sunday, 8 December 2002 02:38 (twenty-three years ago)

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