If Bob Marley Had Lived

I like What If scenarios, but with some folks, it's just incredibly difficult to induce what this alternate world would be like.

what if johnny cash had died?
what if bob dylan had died?
what if the eagles had died?
what if kenny loggins had died?
what if willie nelson had died?
what if eric b + rakim had died?
what if aphex twin had died?
what if pharoah sanders had died?
...

you will see this whole line of thinking gets you nowhere.

I get ya, but I think the difference is that Lennon had shot his bolt 10 years before he died, whereas Marley was on the crest of his popularity. And it's not hard to imagine any Rock artist adapting to the 80s cos there are plenty that did, whereas Reggae hit this big stylistic change in the early 80s.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!

They wish.

Anyway, I accept it's a pissed idiot question, but I think the validity lies in the radical change in Reggae in the mid-80s compared to mainstream Rock.

there WAS a radical change in mainstream rock in the mid-80s!

or: explain what was the radical change in reggae?

I am filled with horror.

Like I said in the original question, Ragga happened. I can't think of an equivalent change in the sound of, say, Clapton or McCartney or the Stones. Yes they acquired an 80s production gloss, but I don't think that equates.

80s rock was late punk / new wave / glam rock / heavy metal / drone rock / grunge / etc

you could as easily argue that "ragga" was a slick 80s production gloss on run-of-the-mill dancehall (and for a very long time, you'd have a point).

Sorry for being bolshy. You're prob'ly right. But as long as I'm drunk I'm going to cling to my ill-defined point.

And respectfully, that's bollocks.

this sounds like an ill-thought-out "looting" / "gathering" type of distinction.

Not much different. It wasn't his dying that made him famous (any more than Ali's living made him famous.) He was a worldwide symbol while he was alive and releasing eh records and I see no reason to assume that that would have changed if he'd continued to live and release more eh records.

"Would he have adapted to a post-Ragga scene."

No. Or at least I doubt it. Dennis Brown and Greogry Isaacs were always intimately tied to the dancehall and they were required to adhere to it's whims. Marley was not required to adapt to the same commercial forces Brown and Isaacs had to, as he was a far greater commercial force outside of Jamaica than either of the former were. The whims he had to adapt to had more to do with Western rock expectations.

"Did his martyrdom make him the student Reggae artist of choice, or would he have gone on from strength to strength."

No. See above.

"My personal (alco-clouded) thought is that a surviving Bob would've been swallowed up under a general cloud of "Cute Jamaican Artists Covered By Punk Bands", but I'm sure I'm being unnecessarily cynical APU."

This isn't even how he was viewed when he was alive, so I can't for the life of me comprehend how his legacy (which unlike Dr. Alimantado or Willie Williams or Prince Far I or whomever) would get reduced from a symbol of Third World world-wide rebellion to this.

"anyway ragga is only considered the major turning point in reggae for grime bloggers."

This is crazy.

Well "production" has different connotations in Reggae and Rock, I think. But I'll let it drop cos I should go to bed now.

I don't think of Ragga as the major turning point, but certainly "Sleng Teng" is equivalent to "Cocaine" as a landmark of sound-shift, in the same way that 90s Dancehall pushed on past Ragga.

ha

I can't think of an equivalent change in the sound of, say, Clapton or McCartney or the Stones. Yes they acquired an 80s production gloss, but I don't think that equates.

isn't digital riddim just a different layer of "production gloss"?

if we are talking about a shift in values then barrington levy / yellowman / dillinger become as important as [punk icon x] and [new wave icon y].

aha see this is the key: the idea that digital culture was the big shift in jamaican music and not culture-of-slackness and lovers and so on vs culture-of-roots.

I just don't agree. You can see it as Roots-Ragga-Digital in a seamless continuum or you can see it as jumps or discontinuations in style. You could use slackness or lyrical focus as another perspective for change but 80s slackness wasn't exackly a new phenomenon if you think about the likes of Judge Dread or Prince Buster...

...and then it dawned on me how you were right, vahid, in terms of the sounds having precedent (though I still think you're being deliberately perverse in not acknowledging any important shift between lovers/dancehall and ragga)

My original post. Point taken.

Would you really respect Bob Marley's incorporating hip-hopisms into his music in 1989?

Besides, was Bob Marley ever really into musical development or evolution? After 1970/71, popularity aside, he stops playing a part in the musical development of reggae. His music swerves off towards rockist reggae, and he takes almost nothing from developments in jamaican music and gives almost nothing back to the evolution of reggae (as a music; he certainly brings a lot of attention to the scene/genre). I doubt he would have survived the transformation into dancehall/digital. Maybe without his death, digital would have taken a couple more years to get to the top, but it still would have burried him.

Had he lived, he just would have become embarassing and maybe married a far more interesting woman to embarrass him further, like Lennon did.

yes reggae went digital in the mid 80s, yes it was a big deal - but lots of other artists other than ragga artists went digital. there is tons of digital lovers rock, tons of digital roots, tons of digital whatever from jamaiaca.

yes deejays were chatting about a very different thing than roots djs like big youth and u roy - but many of them were still chatting over non-digital rhythms for a while. anyway this doesn't take into account the djs who were chatting over non-digital rhythms, ie supercat's "request the style". that's NOT the same thing as "sleng teng", that's a jamaican take on US hip hop music.

combining the two trends into one thing (production trends + cultural trends) is just pure lazy thinking and reinforces this false idea that "current reggae" = "current ragga dancehall"

So is 'rockist' reggae. You're a real canon-smasher, Dan Gr. Such courage.

i know the difference between sean paul and someone like jah cure

What if, on December 3rd, 1976 -- two days before a free show was scheduled for him to play in Jamaica -- Bob Marley hadn't successfully dodged the bullets aimed for him? (which unfortunately killed Rita Marley and his manager Don Taylor that night. He ended up, being wheeled in by security and still recovering from his injury, playing a triumphant show on Dec 5th, '76 and then exiled himself to the Bahamas for a while.)

What if Kool Herc decided to "naaaah, i think I'll move to London instead"?

These are very hip-hop centric questions, admittedly. This is just one of a gazillion angles to approach this.. which leads to my initial comment above.

EXCUSE me, not "killed"... "hit". BIG difference in the context here. I'm sorry.

Whether there's a direct connection between Kool Herc and Marley isn't as much the issue as the social strife occurring in Kingston and much of Jamaica at the time.. Kool Herc escaped Kingston for the U.S. in the middle of all of the mess.. the rest is history. Marley was enough of a indirect icon to help foster the birth of hip-hop.. well, it takes a book to explain really. (Guess which one in particular I've been reading.)

Bob Marley Rises From Grave To Free Frat Boys From Bonds Of Oppression
October 5, 2005 | Issue 41•40

WILLIAMSBURG, VA—In an unprecedented effort to fight injustice, reggae music legend Bob Marley, dead since 1981, rose from his grave in Jamaica early Sunday to free his most devoted followers, American college fraternity members, "from the bonds of oppression."
Enlarge ImageBob Marley Rises From Grave To Free Frat Boys From Bonds Of Oppression

Marley's recordings, which originally raised awareness of the Rastafarian faith and the plight of underprivileged Jamaicans and Africans, have taken on an even deeper meaning as the Greek fraternal system, a maligned, misunderstood minority group itself, has fervently embraced the driving, soulful music.

Minutes after his resurrection, the dreadlocked spirit materialized in the backyard of Epsilon Iota, the Sigma Nu chapter of the College of William and Mary in Virginia. Radiating a transcendent aura, Marley addressed the college's recent campus-wide ban on bonfires.

"I appeared to I fraternity brothers to tell them be strong," said Marley, standing in front of hundreds of hooting fraternity members. "I say don't let dean of students, Henry Riegert, fool ya, or even try to school ya. We'll get that bonfire going in time for da mixer, mon. A fire a man's own business."

Marley was referring to Dean Henry Riegert, who recently denied Sigma Nu's request to host the annual homecoming mixer after their back-to-school party resulted in three severe injuries and two cases of acute alcohol poisoning.

"I songs was about the plight of the brothers and sisters in Jamaica, mon," Marley said. "But right now, it is the frata mon who need it more. They are standing by I music during they keg party."

Marley has been touring the country, acting as the voice for America's fraternities.

"Frata mon's life is hard," said Marley during a press conference Monday at Iowa State University's Acacia fraternity. "Professor, he flunk you all the time. Policeman, he ticket you for the noise. Board of Regents, they make so many rule, try to keep the fraternity music down."

Marley helps a frat boy release his body from the tyranny of alcohol.

In ongoing meetings with fraternity presidents nationwide, Marley said he has heard accounts of mandatory sensitivity seminars, confiscated fake IDs, citations for public nudity, and unfair public perceptions of fraternity members.

These harrowing stories have inspired Marley to hold a benefit concert Oct. 15 at the Las Olas Open-Air Ampitheater in Cabo San Lucas. All proceeds from the benefit, which could prove the largest gathering of reggae-loving frat members since the Reggae Sunsplash tour in 1997, will go to a legal-defense fund overseen by the North American Interfraternity Conference.

Admission to the concert will be free for any member of the fraternity system wearing a baseball hat cocked to the side or back.

"I is hoping to get as many of I brothers to the concert as I can," Marley said. "I want them to see that many people may not hear the cries of the oppressively rich white children, but Bob Marley hear them."

Jason "Boner" Bonham, chapter president of the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity at Tufts University, described Marley's second coming as "killer."

"We're going to Cabo San Lucas!" Bonham said. "The only thing that would be better is if Jim Morrison himself rose from the grave to jam with Bob."

"Seriously, I'm such a huge fan that I've practically worn out my CD copy of Legend. It's the best fuck music," Bonham added.

Although Marley will return to his grave after the Cabo San Lucas concert, he said he will rise up occasionally to give impromptu shows in the billiard rooms, arcades, and basements of fraternity houses across the nation.

"Rasta no abide a sad fraternity mon," Marley said. "I and I will see da brothaman through. These songs of freedom... They all they ever had."

http://sachsmedia.com/rockheaven/assets/images/rockers/bmarley.jpg

there is absolutely no question that, if bob marley had lived, he would have performed at at least one boston red sox game in 2013.

what if kenny loggins had died?

can we finally get around to addressing this important question?