is it increasingly hackneyed to say that hip-hop glorifies criminal activity?

And of course some country, rock, electronic, etc. music glorifies criminal activity but no one seems to mind that much unless a kid commits suicide or something.

Tracks include "Gunz Come Out", "Gatman & Robin", "I'm Supposed to Die Tonight", and, of course, "Ski Mask Way"....

[Intro]
Yeah
I'm Tryin to catch me sumthin
I'ma catch you sumthin

[Chorus]

nigga that watch is nice
that's what you bought for me?
that chain is nice
that's what you bought for me?
them earrings is nice
That's what you bought for me?
Take that shit off, move I'll break you off properly

I get mine the fast way, ski mask way
Make money
Make money, money, money
nigga if you ask me
It's the only way
Take money
Take money, money, money

[Verse 1]
You wanna spray at me? Go head
The last nigga that tried
Got hit, keeled over, and bled 'til he died
Ya little sister callin you stupid
Reason why?
Her and ya momma in the livin room now hog-tied
I came up wit two new ways to get rich I cant wait
Got a brand new cig and that old thirty eight
I be scheming to put a lil' bread on my plate
Watchin Dre serve skunk through the hole in the gate
I stick a nigga for his shine sell em' back the next day
You thought I really wanted ya pussy bitch please
This is stash house, jack pot, leave her them keys
My black g-unit hoody just reak of marijuana
Cocaine comin out my pores in the sauna
Im serious man I'm so sincere
This the flow right here that fucked up Jeffery's career
Make money, take money
Yeah nigga yeah

[Chorus]

nigga that watch is nice
that's what you bought for me?
that chain is nice
that's what you bought for me?
them earrings is nice
that's what you bought for me?
Take that shit off, move I'll break you off properly

I get mine the fast way, ski mask way
Make money
Make money, money, money
nigga if you ask me
It's the only way
Take money
Take money, money, money

[Verse 2]

Whos dat peepin in my window
Wow
The feds on me now
They know when im sleepin
They know when im wake
I know they got my phone taped im screamin fuck jake
Im tryin to stay out them pens, so I switched states
Bad news V-A now that sounds great
I see niggas wit that ice on, rims shined up
This towns one big pussy waitin to get fucked
I holla at A-I peoples to get gats
They charged me 500 a piece for two macs
Then im back doin me
Im back out on a spree
Catch me n' niggas slippin out pumpin dat D
Give me a lil' crew I'll have em' pumpin for me
The more product I take the more paper we see
Change my name in N-Y they don't know where I be
Yeah a nigga doin dirt but a nigga low key

[Chorus]

nigga that watch is nice
that's what you bought for me?
that chain is nice
that's what you bought for me?
them earrings is nice
That's what you bought for me?
Take that shit off, move I'll break you off properly

I get mine the fast way, ski mask way
Make money
Make money, money, money
nigga if you ask me
It's the only way
Take money
Take money, money, money

If you're poor, you're living a living death.
If you're poor, property is theft.
But if property is theft, theft is also theft.
So everything is theft.
But if everything is theft, nothing is.
Because if everything is theft, there's nothing left.
And if your life is a living death, well
Death is also death.
And if life and death are both death, there's nothing left.
But if everything is death, nothing is.
See what I'm saying, or is
You blind?
But if you're blind, those who are blind
Are also blind...
Let me understand this one more time.

(Repeat)

That's beside the point, though. Whether 50 Cent is rapping "in character" or not doesn't change the fact that he's still glorifying criminal activity. Obviously, 50 Cent does not represent the entirety of Hip Hop, but the album in question did sell by the truckload.

This is 100% on the money.

why????

http://www.derekhess.com/images/gallery/1991/flyer91-4.jpg

I merely used 50 Cent as an example above simply to negate the suggestion of Hip Hop glorifying criminal activity as being "just plain wrong," as OK said at the top of the thread. But, towards the further question: is it hackneyed to say it? Kinda. I mean, it's hardly news by this point. But to suggest that Hip Hop doesn't glorify crime is just incorrect, `cos substantial elements of Hip Hop do.

But writing/rapping in character isn't automatically "glorifying" - or does every first-person account of criminal activity fall under this umbrella condemnation, save those that end with the criminal receiving societal repercussions for his behavior? That, if you'll remember, was the Hayes code, and it was lame. I know you're not advocating censorship or anything, I'm not accusing you of that, but I think that there are more possibilities within writing than "for it/against it"

My reaction exactly. Do The Godfather, Scarface, and Goodfellas glorify criminal activity? It's been kneejerk to have this attitude towards rap since it first appeared. I remember the media freaking out that the Beastie Boys and Schoolly D were rhyming about shooting people - then NWA pushed the whole thing over the edge.

Hip-hop glorifies crime when it doesn't address the negative aspects of it -- but there aren't many gangsta rappers who avoid talking about the implications of crime, e.g. play the game and end up with a tag on your toe or in the pen.

The Wu-Tang, for instance, could be accused of glorifying criminal activity, but their music is so shot through with sadness, madness, and depression it's easy to see they understand the ramifications of criminal life. You can point to an "irresponsible" line like "Dedicated to niggas who do drive-bys" in "Can It Be All So Simple" but then six tracks later hear RZA reenact a nervous break-down because his little brother was shot + killed on the way to the corner store.

One can view this as an opportunistic playing to both sides of the house (wannabe gangsta listener vs. morally concerned folk) or as one of the fundamental contradictions in black life as exposed through hip-hop as an art form.

It's really a case by case basis, though. Some people believe Ice Cube or Ice-T are completely amoral idiots - I don't buy that, although it's harder to make the case for DMX or 50 Cent. At the end of the day it's a freedom in art issue. As long as you're not really shooting people, say whatever the fuck you want. The real question is - can you rhyme?

Incidentelly, just in case anyone got the impression that I'm damning Hip Hop for glorifying criminal activity should bear in mind that my second favorite band of all time, after Killing Joke, is....

-- Alex in NYC (vassife...)

CSC, saw them about a hundred times back in the late 80s / early 90s. They were a bunch of pussies but they worked the hard guy angle as diligently as 50 Cent (and I say that with a great fondness for Tod Natz et al). Crowd intimidation a la Suicide / Dwarves, and once they made up a press release about their van getting impounded outside of CBGBs for having guns in it - they were having quite a lark...

When you say "today," do you mean the past 20 years? Where do you think that "On your hands and knees searching for a piece of rock" sample came from in all your fancy techno records?

Rapper as drug dealer is a sore whore of a metaphor.

Fair points, but let's look at the example of "Ski Mask Way" then. Presuming he's adopting the persona of the felon, he's still presenting the information in a boastful, flattering way. It's not a cautionary tale about the criminal life at all. In that respect it's a glorification.

I'm not advocating censorship at all, by the way. I mean, for chrissakes, 50 Cent is constantly talking about how many times he's been shot, appears on the album with guns and the album is called The Massacre, for cryin' out loud. Anyone who bought this for their child expecting anything other than the glorification of crime and violence is an idiot.

The Godfather, Scarface and 50 - yes, definitely.

Goodfellas and Wu-Tang - not so much.

but in america, the criminal has always been a sort of hero.

the number of rappers with dealer-personas today is far more than ever before. and theres little remorse about it today either, its all very happy-go-lucky.

I believe we have here the finest post ever in the history of the internet, and I believe I have a new login name now

It's probably the case that "'hip hop glorifies crime' is hackneyed" is just the new "no it doesn't."

haha it wishes.

Not just America

No they don't. Because in each of those movies the ones breaking the law, comitting violence either learn a lesson, are killed, or jailed. At the end of 50 Cents album he isn't arrested.

Of course hip-hop culture glorifies violence. Just because A Tribe Called Quest and De La Soul don't doesn't negate the rest. Doesn't a lot of the culture come straight from prison? Isn't that where it arguably started?

Uh...what???!??

-- sglkjh (glkjfdslk...), September 19th, 2005.

I think you're confusing these films with Afterschool Specials. The first two Godfather films make a point of presenting "respected" figures such as senators and police chiefs as dirty and dishonorable, ostensibly to make the Corleones look noble by compare. Vito Corleone dies while playing with his grandchild, and Michael ends both films alive and unimprisoned.

Scarface is just a form of violent pornography, so approaching it as a morality play is somewhat inappropriate. I've lost count of the number of rappers (and street hoods) who look up to Tony Montana.

And I'm not sure that Henry Hill's last lines in Goodfellas are evidence of the epiphany you imagine: "Everything was for the taking. And now it's all over. And that's the hardest part... I'm an average nobody... get to live the rest of my life like a schnook." Lesson learned - don't get caught.

These films give audiences the vicarious thrill of identifying with people who act on their naked ambition and who use violent impulses to collect money, amass power, and exert control (there's a reason the USA invented the gangster movie). Sounds kinda like gangsta rap to me. 50 Cent's hood-as-glamour-object image (his album covers look like fashion shoots for Style & Ammo magazine) certainly converts white stereotypes of the violent black buck to cash - that it actually raises the crime rate is a questionable assumption.

At the end of 50 Cents album he isn't arrested.

-- sglkjh (glkjfdslk...), September 19th, 2005.

Oh that we lived in such a world! 50 Cent, arrested for crimes against music...

This is not a new phenomenon, but it always gets my panties in a twist - I had this discussion 15 years ago when a bandmate was railing against NWA and Ice Cube for their "lawlessness." His favorite band was the Dead Kennedys, and he couldn't see the disconnect. He actually sounded like an outraged parent talking about the Dead Kennedys, e.g. "They have a song called I Kill Children! People dance by beating each other up at their shows!"

The question is why does so much of America find the way that hip-hop glorifies crime to be threatening when so much other popular culture also glorifies crime? Why is FoxNews Pundit #2, who grew up with stories about Billy the Kid, afraid of 50 Cent?

To be fair, I don't think race is the ONLY reason. One reason is that the crime being glorified is closer to home (actually going on now in our cities). Another is that the way crime is talked about may actually be LESS glorified - its brutality is not glossed over, the criminals are not made out to be honorable, the victims aren't necessarily getting their just desserts. It's a more amoral-seeming universe, whereas mob movies usually attempt to impose a (mostly imagined) morality on organized crime.

There's a subtle difference...

Side note to Dan re:card games glorifying violence - Lunch Money.

Yeah, I know. But we are arguing for/against the generalization that rap glorifies violence, right? Which, I argue, falls victim to what I said above. If the argument was whether rap occasionally glorifies criminal activity, this wouldn't even be an argument.

I think that rap glorifies needlepoint. And I will google until I am proven correct.

xpost: double points to walter kranz.

http://www.contextflexed.com/

"It is increasingly hackneyed to pretend talking about hip-hop on ILM is fun."

OTM

[Crunchy Black]
I'm a crunk this nigga though, treat 'em like a hoe
Ask these lil' bitches what the f**k they hittin' for
Crunchy ain't a hoe, and Crunchy can't go, and
Crunchy ain't a nigga that you wanna f**k with low
If you didn't know, then nigga you can know, then meet me
Down foo in the middle of the floor, I'ma break it down slow
And fill you up with dro, and smoke a little that 'till I
Can't smoke no more

I'm gon' whoop this nigga
I'm gon' whoop this nigga
I'm gon' take it outside click click (Boom!) with the trigger
I'm gon' rob this boy, I'm gon' mob this boy
I'm gon' call the f**kin killers do a job on this boy

[Chorus]
We gon' beat em to the floor, we gon' beat em to the floor
We gon' beat em to the floor, we gon' beat em to the floor
We gon' beat em to the floor, we gon' beat em to the floor
We gon' beat em to the floor, we gon' beat em to the floor

[Lord Infamous]
You don't know what just happened
You suffering from a fracture
You rebel let me catch you, I'll beat you belly bastard
You have a bad concussion, from tripple six bone rushin'
You all beat up and busted, you shouldn't have pressed that
button
You all bloody and bumy, you yellin' for you mommy
And people think its funny, quit tryin' to out run me
Your eyes are blue and black and, your clothes are ripped and
tackin'
You thought that you could hack it, you shouldn't have wore that
jacket
'Cuz I wreck it, smith and west and my weapon, we steppin'
To let the still meet your chest and, don't play with these
killers
They come from those parts, the north where niggaz be pullin'
The whole cart, so mista big playa mista big time playa
You got the shit on lock why you on my dick
Like a bitch walkin' around like you stone high
Hollow tip bullets don't die, nigga they multiply

I'm gon' whoop this nigga
I'm gon' whoop this nigga
I'm gon' take it outside click click (Boom!) with the trigger
I'm gon' rob this boy, I'm gon' mob this boy
I'm gon' call the f**kin killers do a job on this boy

[Chorus]