Indie Rawk 101

Offerings & opinions from other folks are appreciated as well, even if they're limited to misanthropic comments like: "This sucks, you suck, and your favorite band would've sucked except I left my wallet in the car."

Sticking to a strict guitars-and-docs template (and I'm not even sure some of them should be in there but I needed to bulk up the A category).

Category A: The Smiths, The Pixies, some Wedding Present, Belle And Sebastian, some Sonic Youth, Dismemberment Plan in smallish doses, The Clientele if they count, Throwing Muses up to and including Hunkpapa, assorted individual tracks by most famous indie luminaries including but not limited to Pavement, Dinosaur Jr, The Field Mice, Big Black, and maybe PJ Harvey. The Strokes.

Category B: Sugar, most other tracks by Pavement, Dinosaur Jr, and PJ Harvey, all grunge I've so far heard, all emo ditto, Replacements, Husker Du, Minutemen IIRC, Shellac, all bands sounding like Belle And Sebastian, Lemonheads, J.Hatfield, etc.

No Stump and Mega City Four? What kind of an indie fan are you?

First of all, Doc Martens were never keen with the indie crowds that I spied... mostly black converse with the occasionaly adidas sambas or old school vans.

Indie Rock 101: (note: full lengths/singles not songs)

Dinosaur Jr - You're Living All Over Me Sonic Youth - Sister Big Black - Atomizer Beat Happening - Jamboree Mudhoney - Superfuzz Bigmuff + Singles Butthole Surfers - Locust Abortion Technician Pavement - Slanted And Enchanted Lilys - A Brief History of Amazing Letdowns Smog - Julius Caesar Wedding Present - Seamonsters Yo La Tengo - Painful Royal Trux - Cats and Dogs Slint - Spiderland Seam - Headsparks Palace Brothers - Lost Blues and other songs Eric's Trip - For Tara Barbara Manning - Lately I Keep Scissors Stereolab - Mars Audiac Quintet Liz Phair - Exile In Guyville Superchunk - No Pocky For Kitty Sebadoh - The Freed Man / Wasted Pieces Folk Implosion - Kids Soundtrack Guided By Voices - Vampire On Titus/Propellor Further - Sometimes Chimes the Mountain Goats - Zopilote Machine Drive Like Jehu - Yank Crime Three Mile Pilot - Chief Assassin To The Sinister Heavy Vegetable - Frisby Archers Of Loaf - Icky Mettle

Dinosaur Jr - You're Living All Over Me
Sonic Youth - Sister
Big Black - Atomizer
Beat Happening - Jamboree
Mudhoney - Superfuzz Bigmuff + Singles
Butthole Surfers - Locust Abortion Technician
Pavement - Slanted And Enchanted
Lilys - A Brief History of Amazing Letdowns
Smog - Julius Caesar
Wedding Present - Seamonsters
Yo La Tengo - Painful
Royal Trux - Cats and Dogs
Slint - Spiderland
Seam - Headsparks
Palace Brothers - Lost Blues and other songs
Eric's Trip - For Tara
Barbara Manning - Lately I Keep Scissors
Stereolab - Mars Audiac Quintet
Liz Phair - Exile In Guyville
Superchunk - No Pocky For Kitty
Sebadoh - The Freed Man / Wasted Pieces
Folk Implosion - Kids Soundtrack
Guided By Voices - Vampire On Titus/Propellor
Further - Sometimes Chimes
the Mountain Goats - Zopilote Machine
Drive Like Jehu - Yank Crime
Three Mile Pilot - Chief Assassin To The Sinister
Heavy Vegetable - Frisby
Archers Of Loaf - Icky Mettle

BLIMEY I forgot Beat Happening, Lilys, Liz Phair, Guided By Voices, Superchunk and Yo La Tengo. They all go in category B except for Yo La Tengo who don't quite. But I don't know any of their work well at all.

If Smog and Will Oldham do count then I wuv them - category A it is!

no Will Oldham or Silver Jews, Tom? You seem to mention them a lot as indie you like.

simultaneous post

What happened to the godfathers of Indie, Tom? Didn't you dare to put them in category B or did you forget them? You know whom I am talking of: Velvet Underground (with and without Nico). And Joy Division and The Fall, the English Indie godfathers?

Modest Mouse! Sportsguitar! Lotion! Number One Cup! Built to Spill! Low! Velocity Girl! Buffalo Tom!

(just adding some names to complete an indie rock whos who!:)...

IMHO indie/ twee/ small label (slumberland et al) is a whole different thing.

There's a Category C of stuff I wouldn't turn off, too. Low and the rest of Sonic Youth go in that. I was kind of excluding the post-punk and pre-punk pioneers and inspirations - I took the question to mean, "What indie have you liked since it firmed itself up, so to speak, as a genre?". If we do include 1977 to 1983 then Category A explodes!

Fritz yeah Silver Jews though it's individual songs that really get me rather than the whole body of work.

Oh oh and Mercury Rev's first three albums, especially the third. And the first three songs on the fourth.

And do Spacemen 3 count? I like their stuff though I've not played it for about 3 years.

Category B: ...Pavement, Dinosaur Jr, ...all emo, Replacements, Husker Du, Minutemen, Shellac, Lilys, Guided By Voices, Superchunk and Yo La Tengo

It seems that Tom is afraid of the rock.

Afraid? Not really. Pop's catchier, House is more ecstatic, Hip-Hop's tougher, Disco is funkier, Noise holds up a bigger finger, Soul is wiser, Reggae is steadier, Country is funnier, Glam is sexier, Electronic music uses madder noises and Jazz is more virtuosic - what on earth do I need rock for? ;)

BLIMEY I forgot Guided By Voices
Been trying that as well lately. hah! Don't forget Silkworm though.

Anthems.

Exactly, Sterling - and indie rock anthems don't cut it for me like AOR rock anthems or soft rock anthems or metal anthems. So we're left with, um, morose lyrics I can wallow in, which I cover off pretty well in Category A above.

Casualists.

I used to like indie rock until about 1989...it was all downhill from there what with the wankers from Seattle and all, IMHO. I used to listen to the Smiths, Buzzcocks, Chameleons, Wire, The Fall, Go Betweens, Chills, Sonic Youth, Orange Juice, PreFab Sprout, Teardrop Explodes, Josef K and Ohh so many more. Granted I still listen to the occational CD, esp The Fall and Wire.

spoon

No no, you say it, "SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!"

Is The Tick indie rock?

No, he's No Wave. Arthur, though, is definitely a Pavement fan.

Neutral Milk Hotel? *ducks*

Also neither Fugazi nor Jawbreaker have been mentioned.

Nor the Crockford Clerical Dictionaries, a totally amazing pre-glitch trio from Stokely-Upon-Trent.

― John Darnielle, Tuesday, 19 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The Strokes - "Hard to Explain". The rest is shit, unless the Descendents are an indie rock band.

Bah, The Crockford Clerical Dictionaries are so not indie rawk.

Here's Douglas' WFMU show from the other day that' a really nice selection of 90s indie stuff:

http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/2594

Tom:

and indie rock anthems don't cut it for me like AOR rock anthems or soft rock anthems or metal anthems

What are your favourite AOR and metal anthems? I'm curious.

This thread has made me realize I like less indie rock than Tom does. I mean, Eric's Trip? Are you being serious?

Descendents are an indie rock band.
Punk pop is more like it.

When did Tom say on this thread that he liked Eric's Trip?

Oh, I'm going to have SO much fun making this tape / CD / 8-track / cylinder. I'm thinking I just might send Tom a copy of a Bunnygrunt album and then go siphon some petrol.

Can I just say Versus? Surely Secret Swingers = most archtypical quintessential epitome-type American indie rock album ever, except way better. Same argument applies for Dead Leaves as etc. of American indie early-work-compilation, and The Stars are Insane as etc. of American indie first-full- length. I think what I'm saying, David, is that you had better include "Blade of Grass" or "Double Suicide" or "Glitter of Love" or basically just send Tom their back catalog and have done with it.

Also note: isn't there also some law that you have to include Small Factory's "If You Hurt Me" on this tape? Or "The Last Time that We Talked" or "Expiration Date" or "Versus Tape" (indie about indie -- it's so indie)?

And put "So Sick" on there whether Tom thinks he'll like it or not.

Oh, "Double Suicide"! So referential, it HURTS (so good)! And, yeah, yeah, a Small Factory song will be needed. Maybe some Lois, too. (I could kill 2 stones w/ one bird and stick the Factory's version of "Valentine" on there, but putting all my eggs in one skillet makes for a really messy omelet.)

Nitsuh, my friend, hit me w/ more suggestions.

The Lois song should clearly be "Indie," from the Working Holiday comp. Actually, that comp has you all hooked up -- "If You Hurt Me," the good version of Tsunami's "Kidding on the Square," the Scrawl track ...

What else? Rocketship's "You and Your New Boyfriend." Liz Phair. Velocity Girl's "Drug Girls," maybe. Lorelei's "Stop What You're Doing" or "Newsprint." Guided by Voices track = "Game of Pricks?" "Doe," from the Breeders' "Pod." "Teenage Caveman" by Beat Happening (or "Ponytail" or "Indian Summer"). No, "Ponytail." That way if Tom does not like it I can just know for certain that he is completely mad. You can't not be knocked over by "Ponytail" and still be human.

This is, of course, if you're going for an early-90s canonical-indie kind of feel. What's new? "The Plan," by Built to Spill, or "Sidewalk" or "Center of the Universe." (Tom would probably like "Center of the Universe," as it really lacks "we are rocking" signifiers and just sort of struts happily through.) "Red Paint" by the Promise Ring isn't bad, and you need to at least pick at Tom's "emo" repulsion. And ... umm ... I think I need my record collection to keep at this -- more later.

the EMO choice should ideally be something by LYNC (who are so good it hurts my teef, and too little known.)

Ehh, I'm not really fond of that version of the song. The version on _Nature Film_ isn't much better, though. The best version is one I have running around my head. (And I never really liked "Indie".) (And I don't even know much Beat Happening.) (Why the hell am I Mr. Indie?)

To be honest, I'm not sure WHAT I'm going for - perhaps a bit of Amerindie history (MoB, Embarrassment, Urinals, etc.) mixed w/ some of the indie heyday, & some of the folks that survived the "death" of the "indie rock" & have moved on. Dunno about tackling that "emo" conundrum, though, since that's where Tom & I see eye to eye (in a myopic fashion, of course).

Here's where the crux of the dilemma lies - do I:

A) Make mix of songs I think are KICK ASS SUPER, w/ the hopes of wooing Tom and making him realize the error of his ways

OR

B) Make mix of songs that adhere to Tom's particular tastes, w/ the hopes that these mixes of the loved & loathes help him realize the error of his ways.

The correct answer, of course, is:

C) Stop putzing around the Internet and get some work done.

or D. we all drive out to the abandoned summer restaurant and search for pirate gold!

Mitch: He didn't. Someone else did. The two points weren't really connected. More just "Indie rock must really blow if Eric's Trip makes your indie canon."

Lync = good indeed. Pirate good = gimme.

Love Tara is a great album. But everything else Eric's Trip did was a bit poor.

Pirate good I really like the idea of, though pirate gold was the better option, of course.

eric's trip released quite a few good singles as well before and around for tara.

the bands i listed most of them i have fairly positive listening experiences with (i'm not as polar as most of you). bands that i think of if someone were to ask "what exactly does indie rock sound like"?

tom you liked that girlfrendo track i played that one time!

i would put 'get on the floor (and move it)' by rocketship on.

also 'you got it (keep it outta my face),' 'how long' by kitty craft, maybe 'pat's trick' or something else from 'the dirt of luck.'

oh, and every track i have ever played violin on ;)

see, i think rocketship's "love you like the way i used to" is the best rocketship song.

all this talk of rocketship:

twee-gaze 101 = rocketship - love you like the way i used to

Don't forget Silkworm though.

And here I am listening to the Even a Blind Chicken collection. Yes, great band.

This sucks, you suck, and your favorite band would've sucked except I left my wallet in the car."

Which is why you get a wallet chain, duh. And what of the lovely Piano Magic? They seem indie in my book.

Ultra Vivid Scene?

Like I said, I was sticking to guitars and docs (and put in B & S too for good measure). There's a host of other indie stuff I like which mixes indieness up with other elements - electronics and found sound in Piano Magic's case. They're terrific though.

Yeah I did like that Girlfrendo track Maura! It sounded like Dexys.