Is vinyl QUIETER than it used to be?

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Not sure whether anybody has brought this topic up before (not even sure how I'd begin to search it), so here goes: I'm DJ-ing last night at the 12-Inch Bar in Manhattan, playing all kinds of vinyl, some of it (a 45 by Major Lance, say) four or five decades old and totally beat up. Thought I'd slip a couple more current things into the mix, so I included "Wig Wam Bam" by the Sirens and "Callin' in Dead" by Mazey Gardens and the Brick Hit House Band, both on vinyl 7-inch 45s which have come out on very small indie labels in the past year or two. The specific songs aren't important, though; what was weird was that, those two records (spun at very different times in my set) didn't have nearly enough volume in them to be heard over the people talking in the bar. Didn't notice that with *any* of the older vinyl I played, and even cranking the volume up all the way on the new ones didn''t help. So my question, obviously, is why is this? Are vinyl indie singles these days somehow mastered for CD, then put onto vinyl or something? I know zilch about recording, so I'm not even sure if that theory makes any sense. But at any rate, why would they be quieter? They are both rocking songs, and kick ass on my home stereo. Is there some advantage to mixing records quieter now? Or is it just done to save money? Like, maybe, is the vinyl itself of a way shittier grade, now that it's not commonplace? Or were these two songs just flukes, not indicative of any trend whatsoever? I'm really curious about this now.

― xhuxk, Saturday, 8 October 2005 17:57 (twenty years ago)

I think your turntables just had less output than the CD players in your sound setup.

― donut hallivallerieburtonelli omg lol (donut), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:15 (twenty years ago)

Kidding.. Actually, I think the opposite is true. Vinyl remasters have been louder than the originals if anything. But it depends on the vinyl reissue label, etc.

Munster definitely makes things louder.. those Swell Maps reissues almost sound too compressed, because they're so loud.

There are far too many labels, too many "unauthorized repressings", etc. to give a yes or no answer to this.

I know bootleg hip-hop repressing from the UK in the late 90s have been VERY quiet, but that's about it... even those have improved since.

― donut hallivallerieburtonelli omg lol (donut), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:18 (twenty years ago)

I've noticed that will some of my LPs, specifically Paul's Boutique, Blue Lines, and Entroducing, all of which I sold because of the shitty sound quality.

― gear (gear), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:18 (twenty years ago)

Uh, no...I wasn't playing *any* CDs (never do when I DJ), just vinyl. I'm not comparing CDs to vinyl; I'm comparing new vinyl to old vinyl. Everything I played was on the same two turntables. Unless I don't undertand what you're saying...

― xhuxk, Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:18 (twenty years ago)

(And these weren't remasters or reissues - -though, bizarrely, the Mazey Gardens thing *pretends* to be one -- they're new songs.) (Shit, unless the Mazey Gardens 45 was mastered shitty *on purpose.* That's be REALLY weird, but they make the sleeve look beat up like it's been stored in an attic since 1974, so who knows? That'd be totally perverse, but I wouldn't put it past them.)

― xhuxk, Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:20 (twenty years ago)

I know, xk, I was kidding in my first post.

Also, I think it was just a combination of the EQ settings for the place you DJed at plus the crowd noise and acoustics of the venue vs. your relatively quiet environment at home where you have more control. It's a crap shoot what kind of sound you'll get when you DJ records somewhere. And often, the audience will hear a completely different mix than you as the DJ, depending on what you have for monitor mixes/speakers, if you have/had any to work with.

― donut hallivallerieburtonelli omg lol (donut), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:21 (twenty years ago)

Also, I have a pretty cheap stereo system at home, for whatever that's worth. Maybe new vinyl just sounds better on really crappy systems? (Though I doubt the one in the bar was *that* great. I wouldn't know, to be honest; I'm the least audiophile human being ever.)

― xhuxk, Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

FOr example, some songs have very high mid-range frequencies, especially for vocally heavy tracks, or for just whatever reason. Often, especially at dance clubs, the really low and really high frequencies will be pumped up, because those often go hand in hand with dance music.. or even a lot of rock music. So many mid-freq songs may just sound quieter on a system like that, out of your control. So, in that case, maybe it's worth experimenting with turning up the mid-freq EQ on your mixer before the volume.

― donut hallivallerieburtonelli omg lol (donut), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

Both of those are 7" e.p.'s, right? I think it's a mastering thing, where they tried to cram too much info onto the discs. The narrower the grooves, the less volume they can reproduce. Remember that Mountain LP with the 30-minute-long live side? I think they even put words on the sleeve that you'd have to turn the volume up real high to enjoy it.

― Sang Freud (jeff_s), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

i think it really just depends on the record. the vinyl, how it was mixed and mastered, etc. you could probably find other new 45's that were plenty loud. i think you can lose something when you take a digital mix made for cd and put it on vinyl. you need the person who is putting it on vinyl to know what they are doing and to give a shit in the first place.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

sorry, "some song have a large number of mid-range.. " etc.

― donut hallivallerieburtonelli omg lol (donut), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

12"s in general are louder than any other vinyl medium. Dance and mainstream music is usually compressed so that maximum loudness can be acheived. "Indy" types often get precious about "dynamics" and simply reproducing their recording and sometimes resist compression or demanding "hot" mastering. Plus, masterers who can make pressings loud often cost $. Remember, the longer a side is, the quieter a record will be, which is why albums longer than 38 minutes often suffer for volume.

― Old School (sexyDancer), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

12"s aren't necessarily louder, either. I've recently gotten some really quiet 12" pressings from labels known for really loud techno. The big one word answer to this question is: "depends".

The better answer given the context is: "do a practice set at home first, and see the volume differences in the segue, note them, then make the best of it when you're actually there at the venue, keeping in mind you may still have to do some volume/EQ adjustments.. if you care about that sort of thing deeply enough."

But yeah, as much detail as you gave in your question, xhuxhxhx, this is still too vague a question to answer, given the multitude of modern labels that press vinyl that are either really good, ok, fair, or really bad at making it. It also depends on the bands, too! Sometimes a really good vinyl label is stuck with a shitty mastering job by somebody authorized by the band in question.

It's like asking if "music is BETTER these days?".. I wish I could help

― donut hallivallerieburtonelli omg lol (donut), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:31 (twenty years ago)

new dance 12 inches are usually plenty loud cuz they are still made for the club. most new 45s aren't made for a singles market or radio so they don't have to knock your socks off like they did in the olden days with blasting mono single edits. i notice the differences right away when i am making mix-tapes. old soul and r&b singles were made for maximum boom boom.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:34 (twenty years ago)

Well, I was playing just as many old 12-inches (both singles and album cuts) as old 7-inches, and I didn't notice any major volume difference between them. Though maybe you're right about the precious indie dynamics obsession thing, and I totally get Scott's point about recording studio people being inept or just not giving a shit when it comes to mixing for vinyl these days. Maybe it's a lost art, and the people who were good at it are all retired or dead now! Or at least few and far between. At least I think that's what he meant. (Sang Freud, the Sirens is a 3-song EP (and yeah, Wig Wam Bam was on the 2-song side), the Mazey Garens is just a 2-song 45. So I'm not so sure it has to do with packing too much information, but who knows?)

― xhuxk, Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:34 (twenty years ago)

and scott's last point makes total sense too. right - these were not *meant* to be played at a club or on the radio, just by record collector kids sitting at home in their basements. and i was playing them up against LOTS of old soul and r&b (and other) singles.

― xhuxk, Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:37 (twenty years ago)

id like to preface this by saying im not an audio whiz or anything, but...

were it true that vinyl was being mastered direct from CDs, i think they'd be louder. one of my big problems with modern CDs is that engineers make them sound "hotter" than they need to be. perhaps this is why im going deaf at an early age? perhaps.

if the vinyl sounded quiet to you, it might be that they had a shitty company master and press it, like, say, erika.

― maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:42 (twenty years ago)

Hmmm, that (partially) blows my theory! Though even with one song per side, a bad mastering job can scrunch the grooves together, leaving a runoff groove that’s too large, and not enough volume.

― Sang Freud (jeff_s), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

also, i see that the question has been answered.

― maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:46 (twenty years ago)

two of my fave extra-loud 12 inches are colourbox's baby i love you so and new order's blue monday (first or 2nd press). they are really loud! but loud and clear, that is the real trick. no distortion. actually, ceremony and atmosphere (first presses) are also really nice and loud. thick and full-bodied, not all trebly and screetchy which is what some people end up with. and since i was just on a swans thread, those 12 inches on PVC YOW!!! hardly any singles can beat those crunch for crunch.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:48 (twenty years ago)

PS - DMM makes bad quiet records

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Saturday, 8 October 2005 18:57 (twenty years ago)

it's not quieter. you're getting deafer.

― pw (clam caravan), Saturday, 8 October 2005 19:33 (twenty years ago)

in response to DMM or new vinyl? IF option b, did you even read what chuck wrote?

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Saturday, 8 October 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

i swear to god my original cd copy of godflesh's streetcleaner has gotten quieter over the years. but i can't prove it! it's the only cd i have where i feel this to be true.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 8 October 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)

hahaa, you're getting old!

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Saturday, 8 October 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

but plenty of my other old noisy cds sound the same! it's a conspiracy. i have know way of knowing if it is physically possible for a cd to get quieter.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 8 October 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

Maybe varying frequency responses in newer audio equipment you are using.

Scott, my thoughts based on the way CDs store data, is that degradation of a CD would NOT cause this.

― Jonothong Williamsmang (ex machina), Saturday, 8 October 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm repeating something but I bet the old guys who mastered the older vinyl really knew what they were doing and the people who master the new stuff probably don't give a shit.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Saturday, 8 October 2005 20:10 (twenty years ago)

I think some newer vinyl is made with a more expansive audio range in mind, so it's a kind of decompression since you end up with more clearly delineated high and low tones, but usually compression is what makes things louder. If you have a 12" running at 45rpm you can get away with a good range while having it plenty loud, but that's not too prime for album listening.

― mike h. (mike h.), Saturday, 8 October 2005 20:38 (twenty years ago)

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