Precisely what is wrong with "boys with guitars"?

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Come on, you know you want to.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:22 (twenty years ago)

I guess the idea is that there have been a lot of boys w/guitars groups, going back a long way, and so it's harder for them to sound fresh, especially to jaded ears like mine. Also boys with guitars often get to have a LOT of fun beyond making the music - which is a great motive for doing it but may not translate too well to the listener.

For me personally I tend not to like the sounds guitars produce when they're the lead instrument, rather than there to add colour in a pop or R'n'B production, say. I'd think the same thing if the flute was the dominant pop sound. The boys thing I have no problem with.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:28 (twenty years ago)

Surely it should be 'MEN with guitars'?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:29 (twenty years ago)

is this an in joke or something?

― Idle Idle (idleidleidle), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:30 (twenty years ago)

i think 'guitar' as a sound can mean an awful lot of things, it's a very flexible instrument, compared with the 303 or the violin or whatever.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:32 (twenty years ago)

No, it's a question. Some people - The Lex for instance - are dismissive of "boys with guitars".

xpost yeah I guess so.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:35 (twenty years ago)

the last time i read the nme, in 2001, a writer was arguing that we were witnessing a massive shift, courtesy missy elliott, from boys with guitars to women with computers. obviously the nme's own trajectory doesn't bear this out. but much as i did like missy and didn't like the strokes, it seemed like a bad argument, because it was an argument from technology rather than from form -- something like that.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:38 (twenty years ago)

Rub songs and ugly.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:40 (twenty years ago)

you jest, edward?

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:41 (twenty years ago)

Slightly.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:42 (twenty years ago)

SO has anyone heard the new Starsail-OWWW!

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:43 (twenty years ago)

Malnutrition; acne

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:43 (twenty years ago)

The assumption amongst some journalists and fans that being boys with guitars makes your music inherently superior to other stuff?

― Don King of the Mountain (noodle vague), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:48 (twenty years ago)

I think the problem is not so much "boys + guitars = ", it's more "boys + guitars + this set of assumptions = "

I must confess that when I see a picture of a "new" band and it's gtr/bass/drums or gtr/gtr/bass/drums, played by young men, it makes me not want to hear the music.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 08:55 (twenty years ago)

The most vocal and militant anti-smokers are ex-smokers.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:24 (twenty years ago)

Probably because they know how much happier they are having given up!

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:27 (twenty years ago)

i'm a non-militant ex-smoker, but obviously i'm not pro-smoking, otherwise i wouldn't be an ex-smoker.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:29 (twenty years ago)

I think of flirting with guitars before returning to pop as being more like going gay in prison.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:32 (twenty years ago)

pop and guitars are not incompatible, it would seem to me.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 09:34 (twenty years ago)

I actually don't notice how bog-standard so much mainstream guitar sounds probably are; for me the vocals and, I dunno, song structure probably annoy a bit more. Maybe I dislike the boys more than the guitars.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:35 (twenty years ago)

the problem isn't with guitars per se, the whole guitars versus 303s thing is futile anyway as an argument since so many records in all genres use guitars.

but if Nick means rock bands, then yeah, it's oversaturation and the whole thing feels like some sort of orthodoxy and tradition, also the goals and dreams of the average rock band and their ideal for what music should sound like and the role of music, aswell as those of their fans, always come across as so so stifling and restrictive.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:38 (twenty years ago)

but up to a point all genres and scenes are like that -- otherwise they wouldn't be genres. i mean, i'm sure i've see you argue against eclecticism in dj sets on similar grounds.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:42 (twenty years ago)

maybe Ronan Dance (best catch-all ever) is anti-ambition (in terms of overground success, massive sales and coverage etc.) whereas pop rock is irrevocably pro those things?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:49 (twenty years ago)

The positions aren't incompatible tho NRQ - "Genres are not naturally eclectic. Therefore there will be some genres which seem to me to be played out and stale." makes sense surely?

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:50 (twenty years ago)

I think the "scene" if such a thing exists for "indie" or "indie rock" or wtfe goes beyond that, though. (x-post to n_rq) Ronan pretty much nails it w/r/t "stifling and restrictive". It's like if this (holds hands as far apart as possible) is what you can do, then this (holds hands 1cm apart) is what anybody making "guitar music" seems to actually try to do. It's a fucking bore.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:51 (twenty years ago)

tim's right, it's not the guitars, it's what happens when you had a certain sort of boy to them. you know what type of boy, i don't have to elaborate, think back to university.

most of the boys-wiv-guitars i hate either seem like a) jumped-up student bands who think this is an acceptable aesthetic, or b) morons who think that merely growing up in the sticks and being outsiders qualifies them to be social commentators.

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:52 (twenty years ago)

(boys-wiv-guitars i like: interpol, um, that's pretty much it. i like a lot of girls with guitars though.)

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:53 (twenty years ago)

Arguably one advantage of a lot of dance scenes is that they grapple with issues of purism vs electicisism quite openly, whereas I think a lot of rock discourse is characterised by a sort of wilful blindness toward these issues.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:55 (twenty years ago)

i don't really understand. i mean, i can see how any given genre becomes stale, and that can be through a surfeit of traditionalism/orthodoxy, but without *some* orthodoxy it isn't a 'genre' any more. but while i can see ronan doesn't like the actual tradition of rock, its contents as he sees them, i don't think he's arguing against tradition/orthodoxy as such.

"you know what type of boy, i don't have to elaborate, think back to university."

mmmm, but i knew lots of idiotic cokeheads at university -- maybe this is why i didn't get into electorclash.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:55 (twenty years ago)

Maybe another issue is the way in which guitars are linked so closely to certain ideas about music to the extent that, on a practical level, one seems to imply the other, so bands don't feel the need to look outside these connections.

Like, we seem to rely on guitars for creating a sense of the epic in rock; if we bring in synthesisers they have to be strictly complementary and subservient. I used to love "Big Music" (or at least some of the 90s UK equiv. of same) and still have a soft spot for it - but maybe it's for this v. reason that I love the JLC remix of "Mr. Brightside" so much, it found a way to be Big that had nothing to do with U2.

x-post I wish I'd been a uni student who could afford to be an idiotic cokehead!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:02 (twenty years ago)

Ew, but then you wouldn't be fun to talk with.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:03 (twenty years ago)

"it found a way to be Big that had nothing to do with U2."

Okay that's not true; it had heaps to do with the ambient opening to "Where The Streets Have No Name".

But I sort of wonder if ILX love for "Clocks" boils down to, "oh look! A piano!" This would not render said ILX love illegitimate of course.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:05 (twenty years ago)

Argh, the piano in Coldplay is what I hate most about them! Aside from El Goofo's voice.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:09 (twenty years ago)

after hanging out in a lot of dance clubs, the performance of anger and confrontation of punk rock shows now looks strange to me. It doesn't seems directed at anything, it's just a genre-signifying performance now.

Guitars, however, can still sound beautiful.

― Good Dog (Good Dog), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:10 (twenty years ago)

ILX love for 'Clocks' remains baffling in light of general antipathy towards U2.

The way The Killers allow synths to mingle with guitar bass and both conspire to render lead guitar somewhat irrelevant in a lot of their songs and their sound in general is perhaps the most interesting thing about them/their success.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:15 (twenty years ago)

clocks is better lubricated than most coldplay songs, it glides more than it chugs. or maybe it IS just the "oh look! a piano!" thing, ilx seems to likes most piano-riff rock (vanessa carlton, andrew wk, uhm... others).

― jermaine (jnoble), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

i don't want to think about lubricated coldplay, ew!

coldplay are usually less offensive than most other boys-wiv-guitars but it's not the piano which makes them unbearable, it's his voice.

that's another HUGELY objectionable thing about boys-wiv-guitars: NONE OF THEM CAN SING.

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

except Matt Bellamy. Uh, never mind then.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

Are the public anywhere near as bothered by sonic aesthetics as they are by visual aesthetics, though? i.e. If they see a guitar is that enough, even if they don't hear it? I doubt people have bought The Killer's album because "it integrates synthesizers and guitars to the point that the identity of the lead instrument is incidental", but rather because they have liked the riffs and choruses and tunes.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

Bit of both really innit.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

No I think it's just down to general 'indie' vibe, good hooks and an arresting voice in The Killers case.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:31 (twenty years ago)

If anything, the critics are more deluded than the public. HOw many times has the NME and Rolling Stone anointed the Hives, Vines, Strokes, White Stripes, et al as The Saviours of Rock & Roll?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:33 (twenty years ago)

coldplay are usually less offensive than most other boys-wiv-guitars

Oh no they're not

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

'do you want to' felt light on guitars.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

Alfred, they were THEIR saviours.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

the stripes and strokes were the saviours of rock'n'roll, i think, for a lot of people (present company excepted).

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

"Oh no they're not "

otm

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

The thing about all those bands that Alfred mentioned is that while none of them 'saved' r'n'r the collective effect was to put rock back on the commercial agenda (less so in the US, maybe) - one of the weird things about ROCK-IS-BACK is that it hasn't really had a lone breakthrough act, or defining moment, or even a collective name that's stuck, it's just seeped through things and suddenly Franz not getting to No.1 in the singles chart was a surprise.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:49 (twenty years ago)

Well, the trend is obviously for "of the people" buzzes rather than Diktat From The Press style marketing campaigns (do Libertines fans complain about the NME? I'd bet they do, actually), which is why, say, Artic Monkeys and Magic Numbers have succeeded where The Vines died on their arses.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

i wasn't surprised really because they're in big company what with other huge-selling bands never topping the singles chart (Coldplay again). was there much fuss made about 'Do You Want To' not topping in the chart in the media then?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 337 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Taking that photo has made me happier than anything in a long time.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 10 April 2006 12:18 (nineteen years ago)

1) IT IS A LIE
2) A PHOTOSHOPPED LIE
3) THAT IS A POP GUITAR NOT AN INDIE GUITAR! it has balloons on it and is owned by a girl!

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 10 April 2006 12:22 (nineteen years ago)

So what you're trying to say is, you were lying about liking pop all the time?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 10 April 2006 12:25 (nineteen years ago)

It doesn't have a pop guitar strap. It looks like a jam band strap

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Monday, 10 April 2006 12:27 (nineteen years ago)

i have lied about nothing, matt.

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 10 April 2006 12:28 (nineteen years ago)

It isn't Photoshopped. Honestly, your case would be stronger if you stuck to the truth.

― Anna (Anna), Monday, 10 April 2006 12:31 (nineteen years ago)

what is the gareth telephone box photo?

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 10 April 2006 12:33 (nineteen years ago)

That looks like a Fender Jaguar to me, i.e. KURT COBAIN USED ONE.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 10 April 2006 12:40 (nineteen years ago)

i don't know who that is.

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 10 April 2006 12:48 (nineteen years ago)

I thought it was a Mustang, Kurt used.

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 10 April 2006 13:15 (nineteen years ago)

I thought it was a photo of Zach Braff.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 10 April 2006 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

i don't know who that is.

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 10 April 2006 13:57 (nineteen years ago)

Kurt used a Mustang and a Jaguar and then had Fender combine them for him and called it a Jagstang, or something.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 10 April 2006 14:01 (nineteen years ago)

MuJagFenstanguarder

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 10 April 2006 14:04 (nineteen years ago)

http://westborn.badsee.de/pic/braff.jpg

The Lex with Dom Passantino and William B. Swygart, yesterday.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 10 April 2006 14:10 (nineteen years ago)

Wow, this is going to be the new Gareth-telephone box photo isn't it?

I like to think of it as more the new Barry Krishna (which, infuriatingly, appears to have VANISHED FOREVER)

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 10 April 2006 14:12 (nineteen years ago)

streets and arctic monkeys obviously similar subject matter ie the trials and tribulations of proletariat youth

but with one important one difference (besides from the fact that the arctic monkeys use shitey guitars)
mike skinner makes music workling class youth would actually listen to while the arctic monkeys come from a scene that reaks of the university student union and which to me makes it a total fraud that only deluded nme readers could ever take as real

― andy smith, Monday, 10 April 2006 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

Its not quite that simple tho- working class football lads like guitar songs with proletarian themes and anthemic(ish) guitars... some of them even deign to like the Smiths... altho equally many listen to other more urban sounds (ie black american music or thuggish brit-dance).. Not that many can be listening to Grime, cos it ain't selling, is it? That's for musos and innercity kids, is it not? Regardless, there is crossover between bummfluff bearded students and the genuine salt of the earth masses in prole-guitar rock'n'roll...

― gekoppel (Gekoppel), Monday, 10 April 2006 19:47 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think "boys with guitars" necessarily is a closed gene pool as far as influences go.

But then, who needs influences from the 90s or 00s when you may go and get some great influence directly from The Beatles, The Kinks, The Who, The Small Faces, The Jam, Squeeze, The Clash, Madness, Specials or even Duran Duran or Human League and make great music based on influences from their music instead?

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 10 April 2006 23:30 (nineteen years ago)

SHUT THE FUCK UP, GEIR

― gbx (skowly), Monday, 10 April 2006 23:37 (nineteen years ago)

oops, I forgot the winky.

;)

― gbx (skowly), Monday, 10 April 2006 23:43 (nineteen years ago)

SHOW NO WEAKNESS GBX, HE'LL EAT YOU ALIVE

― haitch (haitch), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 00:02 (nineteen years ago)

BUT IT WAS A SARCASTIC WINKY

― gbx (skowly), Tuesday, 11 April 2006 00:09 (nineteen years ago)

ten months pass...

lol @ lex w/ guitar

― braveclub, Friday, 2 March 2007 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

Haha, I've been looking for this photo for YEARS. (OK, just under a year, since it was taken at my birthday party last April)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/runmdc/ilovethearcticmonkeys.jpg

It is not photoshopped. I am not in a jamband. It is a Jazzmaster, not a Jaguar or a Mustang. (As played by Kevin Shields, not Kurt Cobain.)

― Masonic Boom, Friday, 2 March 2007 15:59 (eighteen years ago)

I'm wondering if Mr H at Teh Grauniad has seen this picture?

― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 2 March 2007 16:05 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.pop-music.com/steps/h.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 2 March 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

He looks like he's recovering from having the top of his head reattached there

― DJ Mencap, Friday, 2 March 2007 16:50 (eighteen years ago)

Taking that photo was my finest hour. Apart from the Barry Krishna pic obviously.

― Matt DC, Friday, 2 March 2007 17:17 (eighteen years ago)

Haha, Lex pretending anything in the Jaguar / Mustang / Jazzmaster family is "not an indie guitar" = comedy gold.

― nabisco, Friday, 2 March 2007 19:37 (eighteen years ago)

Actually though I feel like I see lots of Average Crap Rock Bands with Telecasters these days, which is kinda weird -- maybe it's a Clash thing?

― nabisco, Friday, 2 March 2007 19:38 (eighteen years ago)

one month passes...

"You've been with me a year to the day;
Three hundred and sixty five days watching me decay

We used to talk about girls who play guitars
We used to talk about plans in tiny bars"

Boys with guitars singing about girls who play guitars. Maybe not the most original sounding, but at least the likes of The Rakes and Maximo Park aren't directly ripping off riffs and melodies like Oasis and Led Zep used to. Though I disliked the first album, I'm even enjoying some of the new Arctic Monkeys.

― Fastnbulbous, Thursday, 26 April 2007 20:03 (eighteen years ago)

I like the way lex is holding the guitar. It's the precise opposite of "I'm about to kick out the motherfucking jams", it's more like he found it, unwanted, in his bathtub.

― admrl, Thursday, 26 April 2007 20:05 (eighteen years ago)

It's how a straight man would hold another man's penis.

― Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 26 April 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

haha

― admrl, Thursday, 26 April 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

Actually though I feel like I see lots of Average Crap Rock Bands with Telecasters these days, which is kinda weird -- maybe it's a Clash thing?

Didn't Johnny Marr play one?

― braveclub, Friday, 27 April 2007 14:32 (eighteen years ago)

i'm pretty sure it's trickle-down from the good old postpunk revival thing, actually - telecasters are the best starting point for getting those scratchy, dry gtr sounds

― pretzel walrus, Friday, 27 April 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

Surely yer Strat is better for this

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Friday, 27 April 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

hm, i don't really think so - teles have an inherent bite and a kind of aggro hollowness to them - strats sound "rounder" to my ears.

― pretzel walrus, Friday, 27 April 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

Telecasters are also basically indestructible if you're too rock n' roll to take care of your instrument.

― call all destroyer, Friday, 27 April 2007 15:32 (eighteen years ago)

i'm pretty sure it's trickle-down from the good old postpunk revival thing, actually - telecasters are the best starting point for getting those scratchy, dry gtr sounds
-- pretzel walrus, Saturday, April 28, 2007 12:52 AM (1 hour ago)

Surely yer Strat is better for this
-- Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Saturday, April 28, 2007 12:57 AM (1 hour ago)

hm, i don't really think so - teles have an inherent bite and a kind of aggro hollowness to them - strats sound "rounder" to my ears.
-- pretzel walrus, Saturday, April 28, 2007 1:03 AM (1 hour ago)

Telecasters are also basically indestructible if you're too rock n' roll to take care of your instrument.
-- call all destroyer, Saturday, April 28, 2007 1:32 AM (39 minutes ago)

"precisely what is wrong with 'boys with guitars'?"

― Tim F, Friday, 27 April 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

theres something un-timf about the above post

― 600, Friday, 27 April 2007 16:30 (eighteen years ago)

not really, you can still say "tim f otm" to it

― lex pretend, Friday, 27 April 2007 16:39 (eighteen years ago)

yr right, people discussing what different instruments sound like in response to a question is precisely what is wrong with bands featuring boys with guitars

― pretzel walrus, Friday, 27 April 2007 16:41 (eighteen years ago)

it was a joke! The ableton thread is probably worse.

― Tim F, Friday, 27 April 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

i was gonna say! it would be so easy to make a <strike > joke out of that exchange put in a bunch of sequencer/sampler bod talk in place

― gff, Friday, 27 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe not the most original sounding, but at least the likes of The Rakes and Maximo Park aren't directly ripping off riffs and melodies like Oasis and Led Zep used to

And Arctic Monkeys certainly aren't ripping off melodies. In fact, I'm in doubt whether they have melodies at all.

― Geir Hongro, Saturday, 28 April 2007 00:53 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, Teles are a lot brighter and scratchier than Strats. But really I think the absence of Strats in indie-rock bands is WAY more about their association with, like, professional rockers and blues and House of Blues and Hard Rock cafes and Clapton and Dire Straits and playing solos and shit. (Note that the frontman from Arctic Monkeys playing a Strat does not entirely contradict these associations!)

I'm surprised I don't see more SGs in indie bands, but I guess they're expensive and there aren't as many cheaper imitations.

P.S. Marr might have played a Tele sometimes, but I think mostly he's associated with that semi-hollow Gibson 335!

― nabisco, Saturday, 28 April 2007 01:01 (eighteen years ago)

I think of teles as being more heterogeneous in sound than strats. Sure, you could put whatever you wanted in either, but I feel like I tend to see more variance in tele configuration.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Saturday, 28 April 2007 02:31 (eighteen years ago)

maybe this is totally wrong, but i sort of associate single coils with indie rock, and humbuckers with punk and emo and metal bands.

― pretzel walrus, Saturday, 28 April 2007 06:41 (eighteen years ago)

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