Jay-Z v. MF Doom v. Talib Kweli v. 50

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Product of a lively discussion the other night - these were the four that we came up with.

And seriously - keep it with these four guys - no resurrecting the ghosts of Schooly D or the Biz to come back and show these younguns how its done...

― Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 3 November 2005 15:41 (nineteen years ago)

Jay-Z in a walk.

If skills sold, truth be told
I'd probably be, lyrically, Talib Kweli

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Thursday, 3 November 2005 15:48 (nineteen years ago)

Has Talib had a good track since 2002?

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 3 November 2005 15:49 (nineteen years ago)

Unless Ghostace entered the contest, Jay-Z would destroy all those other clowns before he even opened his mouth.

― Hatch (Hatch), Thursday, 3 November 2005 15:50 (nineteen years ago)

His track on the Danger Doom record comes close.
xpost

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 3 November 2005 15:51 (nineteen years ago)

Jay-Z is much more stylistically original than any either of them..

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 3 November 2005 15:51 (nineteen years ago)

Honestly, how does 50 Cent even come up in this conversation?

― Billy Pilgrim (Billy Pilgrim), Thursday, 3 November 2005 15:56 (nineteen years ago)

sorry, should have read "any of them" not "any either"

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 3 November 2005 15:57 (nineteen years ago)

MF Doom has exactly two good tracks that I've heard - Figaro and Let Me Watch. Why do people like him?

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:09 (nineteen years ago)

Jay-Z is the Scorsese of rap.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:12 (nineteen years ago)

That was stupid. I can't believe I just wrote that.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:13 (nineteen years ago)

I cannot believe anyone would rate 50 high enough to even consider him in this conversation.

― Dan (Pecs Are No Substitute For Skills) Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:15 (nineteen years ago)

There was a guy in the conversation who's argument for 50 was "Dude has sold A LOT more albums than Doom or Kweli." Can't argue with it, but he's not in the same league, lyrically, as the other three.

I also said Jay-Z.

And the Kweli track on DangerDoom is AWESOME!!!
"It just that I'm old school like that/ roll that rap over soul loops like that."

― Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:15 (nineteen years ago)

Jay-Z is more like the James Cameron of rap.

― Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:16 (nineteen years ago)

Kweli is on Koch now :(

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

Ed Koch?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:19 (nineteen years ago)

Jay-Z, easy. But I don't think 50 is as terrible as all that. 50 and Jay are kinda neck-and-neck for number of straight ahead party anthems of the last few years.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

correct order:

1) Jay-Z
2) MF Doom (also scoring points for the Gas Face, and KMD, must be noted)
3) 50 Cent (also scoring points for early mixtape stuff, ghetto quaran, etc)
4) Talib Kweli

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

In Da Club was the only decent party anthem 50 ever made and Jay-Z's party anthems are usually his weakest songs - they're ok but it's not his strength.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

Although I love Kweli sometimes, I also feel like he tries to fit TOO much in his rhymes sometimes. His flow is nowhere near as conversational or engaging as Jay-Z's or 50's.

― Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

Jay-Z is easily a better lyricist than 50 or Kweli and probably better than Doom. But part of what makes him miles better than all of them is his ability to create a hyper-real but convincing persona and carry it into his style - he's a hustler, not a rapper, he convinces you, and as clever as his rhymes are he delivers them in such a way that you almost forget they're lyrics.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

Hurting, so OTM. Jigga's flow sounds like he's just talking to you. Just you and him, and you are buying it ALL.

So, as an ancillary point - I need to complete my Jay-Z library. I have Reasonable Doubt, Blueprint, The Black Album, and Unplugged. Which one should I get next?

― Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:55 (nineteen years ago)

"Volume 3", "blueprint 2", "volume 1", "volume 2" and "roc la familia"..in that order..and dump that lame unplugged album in the trash while yer at it.

M.F Doom was good on "operation doomsday" and, obviously, the two old KMD albums but that's about it.

Kweli was always a lisping Urkel who just got a few nice beats here and there.

― ELLI$, Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

Aww, Unplugged is great.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:06 (nineteen years ago)

The video of it is alright for a couple of watches, i suppose, but i hate hip hop with live instruments and in terms of Jay Z albums i'd say even the first "best of both worlds" with R. Kelly is better than "unplugged".

"Pussy" with Devin The Dude is an underappreciated Jay Z track.

― ELLI$, Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

sorry, but the only Jay-Z I consistently return to is The Blueprint...his lyrics are brilliant, his flow is without peer, and maybe his line about being Kweli is true, but I don't necessarily respect him for dumbing down his lyrics on purpose..however, this is obviously why his appeal is so widespread...you don't need intelligence to figure out his rhymes and references....I find his genius a lot more noticable, while Doom's is hidden, and a lot of Doom's best lines don't reveal themselves initially...it's that complexity that draws me to Doom more than Jay-Z....Kweli was often brilliant up until Reflection Eternal....I find 50 cent embarassing, and the line in the trailer for his movie about being a "poet" is fucking hilarious...so....Doom, Jay-Z, Kweli, 50

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

maybe his line about being Kweli is true, but I don't necessarily respect him for dumbing down his lyrics on purpose

Haha that whole line is way funny because Jay-Z is usually way smarter than Kweli's lyrics!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:18 (nineteen years ago)

You know, when I was writing that post, I thought "I'm TOTALLY gonna sitr up some Anti-Jay-Z Unplugged sentiment. Maybe I shouldn't post it."

But then, I realized that I dig that album occasionally. So, I'll keep it, and go get Volume 3 post haste.

― Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:31 (nineteen years ago)

that whole line is way funny

It's pretty great. And demonstrates why a "conscious" MC < a self-conscious MC

I dumbed down for my audience and doubled my dollars
They criticize me for it yet they all yell "holla"
If skills sold truth be told
I'd probably be, lyrically, Talib Kweli
Truthfully I wanna rhyme like Common Sense
But I did 5 mil
I aint been rhymin like Common since

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Thursday, 3 November 2005 18:04 (nineteen years ago)

Right now I'm not really checking for any of them. I liked the Black Album a lot at the time but these 'comeback verses' are predictable and boring. 50 Cent's first album is great but The Massacre is mostly crap. Although at least he's contributed some good lately with the Game's album (and its best songs) and the "Outta Control" remix with Mobb Deep. "Ski Mask Way" > anything Jay's released post-retirement. Fuck its probably better than most of the black album too. Talib Kweli I haven't bothered with since "Get By," his finest moment? "The Blast" I loved. MF Doom is in serious oversaturation mode right now. Still love Madvillain but I dont really check his albums any more, talk about a dude big on cash-ins, Viktor Vaughn 2 wtf.

― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 3 November 2005 19:41 (nineteen years ago)

why do people hate on "roc la familia" so much? it's my favorite jay-z album right now. great tracks: "change the game" (one of jay's best ever, prob memphis bleek's best verse ever), "i just wanna love u", "this can't be life", "stick 2 the script", "guilty until proven innocent" ... some of the rest is just functional but w/ those crazy just blaze beats i can't get enough of.

― vahid (vahid), Thursday, 3 November 2005 20:59 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah thats why I thought Al was crazy to say Jay's best 4-record streak was Reasonable Doubt thru Vol. 3, I'd definitely go Vol. 2 thru blueprint.

― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 3 November 2005 21:07 (nineteen years ago)

I'd give it to Jay as an all-purpose entertainer for all seasons and moods but Doom is being seriously underrated here. Anyone can "get" his rhyme template pretty quickly(he stops just short of being a stylistic one-trick pony) but even within that he's more constantly stunning, satisfying, hilarious than anyone since ODB's heyday. My gut says that at his best he's instant refreshment in a way even Jay could never be.

― tremendoid (tremendoid), Thursday, 3 November 2005 21:22 (nineteen years ago)

I still think Doom is great but after a "live album" and his 8 or so album run I just dont have any interest!

― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 3 November 2005 21:29 (nineteen years ago)

yeah doom is like kool keith pt 2. did anybody really need "dr dooom" or "matthew" or "black elvis" or "analog brothers"?? even the UMCs albums are starting to age badly.

but OTOH i'm still watching doom's production work. has anybody heard special blends vols 1-2? great shit in the pete rock tradition. amazing library soundtrack versions of "ryde or die", "ante up", "hell on earth", "rush on me" etc etc

― vahid (vahid), Thursday, 3 November 2005 21:36 (nineteen years ago)

even the UMCs albums are starting to age badly.

Not to add confusion, you may want to differentiate UMCs from Ultragnetic MCs, of which Keith was actually a part.

Did anyone check out Dr. Octagon 2 from this year? haha its really really bad.

I still like Ultramagnetic tho.

― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 3 November 2005 21:39 (nineteen years ago)

oh yeah, duh, i meant ultramagnetic mcs, not the group on wild pitch. aside from "give the drummer some" and "poppa large" i'm pretty much over it. still got my soft spot for "dr octagon", though.

― vahid (vahid), Thursday, 3 November 2005 21:54 (nineteen years ago)

Kool Keith's best album is Dr. Doooom's First Come, First Served

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 3 November 2005 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

Did Doom just do production on the new Ghostface album, or is he also rapping?

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Thursday, 3 November 2005 22:09 (nineteen years ago)

xpost to vahid yeah I didn't even touch on his production, if he did nothing else he could be like a skitmaking svengali-for hire, the ones on King Geedorah are like the best thing about the album, especially as respites from the raft of wack mc'ing surrounding Doom. I haven't heard either Special herbs yet either. I like Kool Keith but his shit...I'm not gonna reduce his stuff to a "pose" but seems like if you don't get off on some of the attendant halfway-extraneous identity/freak-indie positioning shit(most of which MF Doom does without making it seem extraneous, cuz really it isn't in either case) it's mostly just good to above average musically. xpost Kool Keith's best album is Dr. Doooom's First Come, First Served seconded.

― tremendoid (tremendoid), Thursday, 3 November 2005 22:12 (nineteen years ago)

MF Gill says MF Doom.

― Michael F Gill (Michael F Gill), Friday, 4 November 2005 00:56 (nineteen years ago)

Jay-Z and Doom are two completely different entities, like comparing, I dunno John Ford, and the Marx Brothers or something. Hova's got better party singles and usually better beats and a more versatile flow and his laugh is the best in hip-hop and he can dominate some real atmospherically disparate shit like no other (compare old-skoolish Isaac Hayes soul beat "Can I Live" and Timbaland at his Timbalandiest on "Jigga What Jigga Who" and note how at home he's at in both). Doom is fucking scary how he can find rhymes for every cliche ever and make them funny, not just "clever" but rewind-that-what'd-he-say-oh-shit laugh out loud business, and I love the fact that he's got the same kinda mostly-deadpan voice for it all, like he's just accustomed to and comfortable with and even blase about the fact that he's rolling out at least 5 retardedly classic one-liners per average track (less than that in the VV2 album, which I'm calling atypical). Wondering how many Doom haters ride Cam'ron's fuzzy purple satin spangly rhinestone jockstrap-slash-holster.

50 and Kweli couldn't interest me less if they were on the Elephant 6 roster.

― disco violence (disco violence), Friday, 4 November 2005 02:34 (nineteen years ago)

ILM's continued 50 Cent ambivalence really really makes me wish I liked Massacre.

― deej.. (deej..), Friday, 4 November 2005 03:11 (nineteen years ago)

"he's just accustomed to and comfortable with and even blase about the fact that he's rolling out at least 5 retardedly classic one-liners per average track"
OTM.

A lot of the Jay Z love seems to come from white critics living out gangsta fantasies. Not to say that he isn't about the pinnacle of singles, but gimme Doom's albums over Hova's any day.

― js (honestengine), Friday, 4 November 2005 03:12 (nineteen years ago)

Hey js not to defend rock critic love of jay-z but what evidence do you have of this?

― deej.. (deej..), Friday, 4 November 2005 03:19 (nineteen years ago)

MF Doom. More creative output than Jigga.

― Chico Fly (cantinflas), Friday, 4 November 2005 03:36 (nineteen years ago)

Has everyone who denies Doom forget:
1. He produces his own tracks
2. his alias': Viktor Vaughn, King Geedorah and Madviilain?

― thatoldsoul (thatoldsoul), Friday, 4 November 2005 06:15 (nineteen years ago)

Hey js not to defend rock critic love of jay-z but what evidence do you have of this?
-- deej.. (clublonel...), November 3rd, 2005 7:19 PM. (deej..)

you know, the 3 million white rock critics that bought "vol 2".

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 4 November 2005 06:37 (nineteen years ago)

A lot of the Jay Z love seems to come from white critics living out gangsta fantasies.

I really resent this. I really don't see the connection between just enjoying Hova's versatility and wit and knack for finding great collaborators and "living out gangsta fantasies." It's like saying my Pet Shop Boys love comes from living out gay Englishman fantasies. Which is total bullshit, since I get my gangsta fantasy material strictly from Rae and Ghost. Jay-Z is strictly about living out banging-Beyonce fantasies. Also, I'm not a critic irl.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Friday, 4 November 2005 07:30 (nineteen years ago)

jigga - clearly walks it
kweli - for sustained amazing flow on reflection eternal and black star
50 - for a few great singles
doom - where are the beats???? he needs to stop producing his own material

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Friday, 4 November 2005 12:03 (nineteen years ago)

A lot of the Jay Z love seems to come from white critics living out gangsta fantasies. Not to say that he isn't about the pinnacle of singles, but gimme Doom's albums over Hova's any day.

-- js (roc...), November 3rd, 2005.

Does a lot of the love for The Godfather come from white film critics living out gangster fantasies?

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 4 November 2005 13:48 (nineteen years ago)

HURTING STOLE MY ANSWER (only I was gonna use Marty S. -- and damned if I'd feel stupid sayin' that.)

doom - where are the beats????

"BEEF RAPP"! Incidental music from the '70s Spidey cartoons w/fat break attached! THERE IS TEH BEATZ!!!

― disco violence (disco violence), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

Does a lot of the love for The Godfather come from white film critics living out gangster fantasies?

Probably!

― oops (Oops), Friday, 4 November 2005 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

I recently realized that the reason why I don't like Jay Z isn't because he doesn't have a good flow or isn't clever or doesn't have good beats, but that I just don't like his personality. wouldn't want to hang out with him and therefore don't like to spend time with him in the form of listening to him rap.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 4 November 2005 22:53 (nineteen years ago)

If anything Doom was revered for his production when he came out and has only ever sounded good over his own beats. All that Viktor Vaughn and Madvillian trash isn't even in the same sport. Sadly, neither was "mm food".

"Operation doomsday", though, was some whole other shit.. like an old Ron G blends tape orchestrated by Prince Paul and RZA... Sade over "poetry" by B.D.P, Steely Dan, Spiderman soundtrack lp, Ike Hayes, Atlantic Star over "microphone fiend", S.O.S Band, Quincy Jones..He flipped so many ridiculous samples on that lp. Realistically the production on there is closer to vintage '97-'99 Bad Boy than any offbeat underground space rap which is what he's doing now.

I think that might just be the only great album to come out of the whole Stretch & Bob underground scene of the late 90s. Well, maybe the Scaramanaga album too.

Also, while i agree that 50 did make some of the best commercial tracks of the past few years ("wanksta", "in da club", "21 problems") he's getting a lot of hate here.. let's not forget how ill his mixtapes from 2001-2003 and the really old Columbia tracks like "ghetto quaran" were and, yeah he got lazy, but tell me he didn't rip "hate it or love it".

Hov' still wins, though.

― ELLI$, Friday, 4 November 2005 22:55 (nineteen years ago)

Jay-Z is the only one I really listen to on a regular basis.

Though, do you mean who's body of work wins, or who would win in a battle? I'm not sure I've ever heard Talib and MF Doom battle anyone. Have they?

― James Morris (HorrayJames), Friday, 4 November 2005 22:56 (nineteen years ago)

Talib was done battling stuff. He's OK.
Ell$s is quite wrong about DOOM though. Viktor Vaughn is his masterpiece to Jay-Z's Blueprint, and VV holds up stronger. And come on, don't foget that something like "Justify my thug" sounds like a Fabolous b-side. I love Jay-Z, but there's no mystery left: he's made himself all about the industry, forgetting that most fans don't give a fuck about CEOs, signings, and beef with Dash.
Talib is a better MC than 50, but I'm actually intrigued by 50 in a way I've never been with Talib - and I'm a Black Star fan.

So: 1. DOOM, 2. Jay-Z, 3. 50-cent, 4. Talib Kweli

― paulhw (paulhw), Friday, 4 November 2005 23:29 (nineteen years ago)

on't foget that something like "Justify my thug" sounds like a Fabolous b-side.

YOU SAY IT LIKE IT"S A BAD THING!

I admit...I totally slept on Fab until "Breathe"...now I think everything I hear from him is awesome, lyrically, even the old stuff i didn't like at the time......he's way underrated....

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 4 November 2005 23:58 (nineteen years ago)

50, though I haven't heard as much Jay-Z as I should.

― 'Twan (miccio), Saturday, 5 November 2005 00:00 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah thats why I thought Al was crazy to say Jay's best 4-record streak was Reasonable Doubt thru Vol. 3, I'd definitely go Vol. 2 thru blueprint.

-- deej.. (clublonel...), November 5th, 2005.

Dynasty is great and underrated but Vol. 1 is for real my favorite album of his, no question.

― Al (sitcom), Saturday, 5 November 2005 00:13 (nineteen years ago)

ellis, deej otm

this thread is really about the other three, they all occupy peripheral positions in my rap listening and all have a few great singles. its like the battle of the mumbly mouthed

― hk, Saturday, 5 November 2005 10:28 (nineteen years ago)

i'm really shocked that reasonable doubt doesn't get that much love on ILM. then again, maybe it does and i just don't read the right threads.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 5 November 2005 10:44 (nineteen years ago)

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Jay-Z v. MF Doom v. Talib Kweli v. 50 - Who wins?