Taking Cocteau Sides: Pre-Blue Bell Knoll vs. Post-Blue Bell Knoll

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

http://www.cocteautwins.com/html/theband/band/1984_6.jpg

Always struck me how very much their signature sound sort've morphed circa Blue Bell Knoll. Though still gorgeous, it seemed they excised a bit of both the sonic fog but also slathered honey all over Liz's vocals, burying her Banshee wails in favor of more melifluos, higher-register trilling. A friend of mine used to suggest that the Jesus & Mary Chain stole their edge and ran away with it. Not sure if his chronology is right, but there's nary a nanosecond of abrassion in their repetoire after Blue Bell Knoll.

Agree? Disagree? Preference?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:52 (twenty years ago)

hmmm that's the look I sported in high school

― sexyDancer (sexyDancer), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:56 (twenty years ago)

i agree it happened. but i dont think it happened on blue bell knoll

― terry lennox. (gareth), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

I'll take pre-, but not by any wide margin.

― The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:58 (twenty years ago)

Up through 1990, peerless. After that, more generally comfortable with flashes of brilliance.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

Considering that the vast majority of their greatest stuff lies on the pre-Knoll side of the fence, I'm going to put my foot firmly in that camp, reaching out to grab "Heaven or Las Vegas," which is almost certainly my favorite of theirs. The Siouxsie-aping is ace, as is the "Treasure"-era stuff, but the mellifluous, "Heaven"-era material is totally genius.

I love it ALL, though.

― owen moorhead (i heart daniel miller), Thursday, 3 November 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

i agree it happened. but i dont think it happened on blue bell knoll
OTM. I think it happened after they built their own studio c.'85-86.

IMHO their career arc is: < > < > with the peaks 1983-4 and 1988-90.

― Jeff W (zebedee), Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:07 (twenty years ago)

They released records after Blue Bell Knoll?

That was the album I gave up on them for. My brother liked it, and all his stockbroker friends started listening to them. bah.

― We might force K8 to change her name to Marie. (kate), Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:10 (twenty years ago)

Post, from what I've heard which isn't much - just the peel sessions and the Heaven & Las Vegas LP. I can't really listen to the foggy flangefest of the earlier stuff. First LP is OK.

― Dr.C (Dr.C), Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:11 (twenty years ago)

all his stockbroker friends started listening to them

Ouch.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 3 November 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

BBK's their major label debut, yes?

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 3 November 2005 18:08 (twenty years ago)

no, still on 4AD then. Four Calendar Cafe was their first post-4AD LP, much later

― zebedee (zebedee), Thursday, 3 November 2005 18:10 (twenty years ago)

hmmm that's the look I sported in high school

the chick with the necklace?

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 3 November 2005 18:13 (twenty years ago)

blue bell knoll was on capitol in the us though

― kyle (akmonday), Thursday, 3 November 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

Blue Bell Knoll is when I stopped listening too! I couldn't dig it for some reason, and I had been pretty rabid about them up until then. Maybe the drugs were wearing off. Wearing off ME, that is. Don't know about them. I always mean to pick up the later stuff cuz i know people swear by it, but something else always comes up. I remember not caring too much for the video circa heaven or las vegas. it was a treat to see them on the tonight show though.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 3 November 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

maybe that's why i didn't dig BBK. I probably had a crappy capitol vinyl copy that sounded bad. This was around the time that i couldn't really get into technique by new order either. i was getting old or something. although my fave album around then was the fall's kurious orange thing, so maybe not too old. i have no idea if i am getting my dates right.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 3 November 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

Isn't Anything and 69 stole all the Cocteaus' thunder in '88.

Pre-Blue Bell Knoll by far, though I will always defend Milk and Kisses (my favorite post-Victorialand).

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Thursday, 3 November 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

Ditto House Tornado.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Thursday, 3 November 2005 18:34 (twenty years ago)

BBK sounds a hell of lot better now than it did when it was new, to me anyhow

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Thursday, 3 November 2005 19:29 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, it's grown on me though its hyperlushness sometimes doesn't *quite* work -- Heaven or Las Vegas's simplicity in comparison just seems stronger.

Still, hearing the band begin their 1990 show in LA with "Blue Bell Knoll" itself was some kinda purity.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 3 November 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

I remember being actively disquieted by the video for "Carolyn's FIngers," as Liz suddenly had turned into my dead Aunt Julie. That said, I think the vid for "Evangeline" is gorgeousity itself.

See'em both here, by the way.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 3 November 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

Most of my favourite Cocteau singles and EP's came before BBK ("Love's Easy Tears EP", "Sugar Hiccup", "Aikea Guinea", etc.) so I have to pick pre-BBK based on that. Album-wise, it's a closer call. I think that the revered "ambient" stuff that came pre-BBK ("Victorialand", "The Moon and the Melodies") are a bit overrated, while albums such as "Heaven and Las Vegas" and "Milk and Kisses" ( + the outstanding "Twinlights" and "Otherness" EP's) are among their best work.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 3 November 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

pre pre pre by a mile.

the later work is good also. I just have a special place in my heart for the pre-BBK stuff.

― sleeve (sleeve), Thursday, 3 November 2005 23:36 (twenty years ago)

heaven or las vegas is still my fave, but it's an abberration, I'll take pre

― kyle (akmonday), Thursday, 3 November 2005 23:44 (twenty years ago)

Pre by a huge amount. HOLS isn't even that much cop.

― Si.C@rter (SiC@rter), Friday, 4 November 2005 00:29 (twenty years ago)

I love love love this band and although HOLV and Milk & Kisses rank up there with their best albums, I think from Blue Bell Knoll on they had more of a formula (albeit a great one). I'd definitely take pre-BBK especially for Head Over Heels and all the EPs.

― LeRooLeRoo (Seb), Friday, 4 November 2005 00:58 (twenty years ago)

i think both ends of their career are equally as interesting.

i really enjoyed bbk and onward as i knew that liz was going through some serious shit and that was reflecting in her vocal gestures. and it is not to say either that pre-bbk is not some of my favorite shit with "five ten fiftyfold" (the song that turned me onto to them thanks to an older friend in 83) "otterley", "blood bitch", "hazel" and so on... but there was something quite under the surface that was going on after bbk that i liked. some of my favorite tracks are also from bbk onward... "pitch the baby", "an elan", "pur", "fifty fifty clown", "seekers who are lovers", "mizake the mizan", etc...

i really feel that four calendar cafe is quite a great record as it was so completely soul baring and for liz i think it was quite daring to be so lyrically forthright at that point. even vocally during the shows for that tour she was a bit different, it was so raw and not as technically restrained in comparison to the other times that i saw her.

another reason why i liked the later bits was the involvement of mark clifford in the mix, i wished that they had pursued that a bit more than they did. the otherness ep and the live bits during the milk and kisses tour were astonishing and still resonate deeply with me to this day.

i think that their post bbk material gets dismissed a little too quickly maybe because it is not as immediate as their earlier material, but it is not any less engaging i feel.

dunno, just my feelings... (sorry if these thought are a bit scatter shot, it is early)

― ehbenoit, Friday, 4 November 2005 14:37 (twenty years ago)

How dare you have your own opinion.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 4 November 2005 14:38 (twenty years ago)

plus that fucking fantastic hair in the "bluebeard" video... for fuck's sake... she was stunning in that and the "evangeline" videos... oh yeah, and those songs were great as well. :)

― ehbenoit, Friday, 4 November 2005 14:39 (twenty years ago)

ned... ;) be damned me.

― ehbenoit, Friday, 4 November 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)

ehbenoit OTFM, IMFO.

― owen moorhead (i heart daniel miller), Friday, 4 November 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)

Interesting — after largely being dismissed when it came out, Milk and Kisses appears to be gaining favor as time goes on...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Friday, 4 November 2005 20:37 (twenty years ago)

Thats what happened to me. After the initial disapointment of hearing an album that seemed really Cocteau-by-numbers, I finally listened to the songs and realised they were all mostly great ones.

― LeRooLeRoo (Seb), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:10 (twenty years ago)

Milk and Kisses is the one album I don't own by them ... and I even own the Peppermint Pig 12"!

I'm in the camp that thinks the sound started to morph before BBK. Echoes in a Shallow Bay and Tiny Dynamine were the pinnacle for me.

― zaxxon25 (zaxxon25), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:15 (twenty years ago)

Loved Milk and Kisses from the first time I heard it.

Checks records...

Yes, #8 of '96.

― Andy_K (Andy_K), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:23 (twenty years ago)

I'm actually with Andy_K — something about that record hit me immediately — "Seekers Who Are Lovers", "Treasure Hiding", "Serpentskirt". Part of it may have been that was really taken with what Mark Clifford was doing with them. But even moreso, I think it was that I was only familiar with a few records when I heard it (Treasure and Sunburst and Snowblind), which meant I wasn't in the whole "WTF? This sounds like The Sundays!" camp that obsessively had tracked their progress/decline. And I think that meant I could hear it with fresher ears...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Friday, 4 November 2005 21:49 (twenty years ago)

What I love about the picture that opens this thread is that Robert Smith has had all *three* of the haircuts featured there at some point in his career.

― Ignatz, Friday, 4 November 2005 22:32 (twenty years ago)

I can't say I see their career in terms of a pre-BBK/post-BBK divide. I will allow that in retrospect, BBK seemed like it had a little too much of a sheen on it production-wise, with little to lend character to one song over another. I would rate it as their next-to-least memorable album, just above Four Calendar Cafe. But it's very hard to criticize the Cocteaus, really, because even on their worst of days they're still bloody fabulous, and I remember playing BBK on my walkman countless times.

To try to answer the question of the thread, though, it would be fairly easy to pick pre-BBK Cocteaus, except that would leave Heaven or Las Vegas on the wrong side of the fence, and what a gaping miserable hole that would be to live with.

― Bimble The Nimble, Jumped Over A Thimble! (Bimble...), Saturday, 5 November 2005 02:00 (twenty years ago)

I still do remember the first time I heard them on the radio - it was either Spangle Maker or Pearly Dewdrops Drops and it was such a gut reaction. Equal parts "What in the hell is THAT?" and "Whatever it is, it makes perfect sense."

― Bimble The Nimble, Jumped Over A Thimble! (Bimble...), Saturday, 5 November 2005 02:06 (twenty years ago)

I think that Alex's dividing line actually splits BBK in half evenly, after "The Itchy Glowbo Blow" or "Cico Bluff," when the album loses some of the wispy, gothy filigree and shadows (ahem) with which they started their careers. (Behold my deft switch of qualities that defines the Cocteaus in these two different eras; I was ever fond of the early, abrasive stuff -- Garlands is probably the only album that I'm still scared of.)

― Rainier Wolfcastleee (Leee), Saturday, 5 November 2005 04:17 (twenty years ago)

A friend of mine used to suggest that the Jesus & Mary Chain stole their edge and ran away with it. Not sure if his chronology is right, but there's nary a nanosecond of abrassion in their repetoire after Blue Bell Knoll.

Psychocandy was released in 1985, Blue Bell Knoll in 1988. If anyone stole the Cocteaus' sound it was My Bloody Valentine, at least on the songs that Bilinda Butcher sang, such as "Blown a Wish," and early Lush, who were on 4AD, produced by Robin Guthrie, and shameless, if slightly poppier, Cocteau copyists.

Fwiw, the Cocteau's career begins with Head Over Heels and ends with Blue Bell Knoll for me. My fave record is the Love's Easy Tears EP that preceded BBK.

― John Hunter, Saturday, 5 November 2005 05:19 (twenty years ago)

I prefer the pop era - it's what they were working toward - you could hear it early on.

― duke of marlboro (mickeygraft), Saturday, 5 November 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)

Pre, with no doubts whatsoever.

Bimble, I also had one of those visceral gut reactions to the first time I heard them. I'm pretty sure it was an episode of The Tube on Channel Four, so around '83 perhaps, and they performed "Musette and Drums" in a way that made me sit on the edge of my seat, dumbstruck, actually worried for this tiny intense reincarnation of Edith Piaf as seen through a Siouxsie lens! And that guitar sound, fuck.

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 6 November 2005 01:35 (twenty years ago)

I should add that "Seekers Who are Lovers" is the only thing that comes close to making me doubt my preternatural certainty above.

― David A. (Davant), Sunday, 6 November 2005 01:36 (twenty years ago)

that early stuff sounds so dated to me.

― duke of marlboro (mickeygraft), Sunday, 6 November 2005 04:34 (twenty years ago)

David A. from Canada! I remember you as being a cool guy though I can't remember what thread we met before on - maybe a Krautrock one? Not sure. Was a long time ago. You're certainly not here very much are you? ;)

I find it strange that she still gets compared to Siouxsie, really, although I could see how people who heard Garlands when it came out would have seen that as a natural reference. I don't know what Edith Piaf sounds like but I recall John Peel saying "sounding a bit like Edith Piaf there..." after a Cocteaus track.

I just honestly don't feel like anyone "stole their fire" or what have you. Folks like Lush or MBV or JAMC, though I do appreciate them, could not really stand on the same footing with the Cocteaus. I see the Cocteaus as a musical entity unto themselves entirely except that they influenced others. Had they acheived perfection over that many albums well...I don't know if the Beatles even acheived that kind of perfection. I just don't think they really had any peers, they blazed their own trail, it took them through ups and downs, but the idea that someone could have overtaken them makes no sense to me. The different drum they danced to was one no that one else could even hear.

― Bimble The Nimble, Jumped Over A Thimble! (Bimble...), Sunday, 6 November 2005 06:01 (twenty years ago)

I thought it was a Roland 808.

― Wolfcastleee (Leee), Sunday, 6 November 2005 18:45 (twenty years ago)

post-and-inclusive-of-bbk. i love pretty much all of it whereas pre-bbk my cocteau-love is more erratic and i rarely return to those albums.

― tricky (disco stu), Sunday, 6 November 2005 19:22 (twenty years ago)

To my ears they lost most of their "edge" when Will Heggie left (after "Peppermint Pig") and most of what was left when Simon Raymonde joined ("Spangle Maker"); although "Echoes In A Shallow Bay" and "Tiny Dynamine" were both pretty good.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Sunday, 6 November 2005 21:32 (twenty years ago)

Having just pledged my allegiance to Milk and Kisses-era Twins, it's hard to argue 85-86 Twins (LP's Victorialand and the Budd collab., but particularly ep's Aikea-Guinea, Echoes..., Tiny..., and Loves Easy Tears) isn't where they hit their stride.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Monday, 7 November 2005 02:39 (twenty years ago)

As long as we're sharing "first time" experiences on this thread, I will say that hearing "Wax And Wane" on the radio in 1983 was a critical turning point in my life. In that same single show I also heard Throbbing Gristle and The Fall for the first time. Let's hear it for good DJ's!

― sleeve (sleeve), Monday, 7 November 2005 04:01 (twenty years ago)

my first CT experience was 'carolyn's fingers' - which i despised - but this was followed up a couple of years later by hearing 'iceblink luck' which completely turned me around. i think this also was responsible for my love of highly effected guitars.

― john p. irrelevant (electricsound), Monday, 7 November 2005 04:03 (twenty years ago)

nineteen years pass...

I wanted to know what Blue Bell Knoll sounded like as an amapiano tune so I spent the afternoon making this mashup and adding some of my own log drums. It's ridiculous but I think it works?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMGu5PzNtyA

― the wedding preset (dog latin), Saturday, 25 January 2025 20:08 (one year ago)

YOU WHAT

― MUFFY TEPPERMAN WAS THE OG KAREN (Austin), Saturday, 25 January 2025 20:33 (one year ago)

You heard haha

― the wedding preset (dog latin), Saturday, 25 January 2025 20:35 (one year ago)

don't doubt yourself, this definitely "works"!

― MUFFY TEPPERMAN WAS THE OG KAREN (Austin), Saturday, 25 January 2025 20:36 (one year ago)

Ah cheers Austin. It was fun to make!

― the wedding preset (dog latin), Saturday, 25 January 2025 20:43 (one year ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.