Live DJing questions: Final Scratch, Ableton Live, 12"s, what do people actually use?

That said, I think a lot more local or smaller name DJs stick to vinyl and still trumpet the "if it's not vinyl, you're not really DJing, it's cheating, blah blah" line. Final Scratch and Serato Scratch get around some of those complaints because you're still manipulating vinyl, it's just two special records that get run through your laptop.

With more "star" artists and DJs using more gear in their setups, it'll probably become less of a concern. Some electronic/techno artists who do live shows lug along a lot more gear to begin with. I think hip-hop djs are less likely to catch on, although I've seen some use CD gear.

The whole "van of vinyl" estimate is pretty far off from what I've seen though. Most DJs on tour might bring a crate (or two) of vinyl but I think most tend to keep to fairly similar sets on a tour and have their selection narrowed down fairly well before going on the road.

I believe, although I may be wrong, that both FS and Serato work this way.

mike h. otm. essentially, the 'special records' allow you to manipulate the audio files on your laptop (via the software and mixer) in real time by actually playing with the records as they play on real 1200s. you load the tracks into the interface on the 'puter, and if you speed up, slow-down, or scratch the special records, it applies that to the song playing. pretty neat.

my friends are all about the traktor. i haven't used it or albeton, but i'm curious, as i'm about to start DJing again, and don't have any new records, and the whole CD mixing thing is not my forte.

yes, a lot of big DJs are moving away from vinyl, but some aren't going as far as the laptop thing, but tour with CDs. seems like a cop-out, doesn't it? carl cox just dj'd here and he had a binder with CD-Rs which he used pretty much for the whole set. hmmm...

As for the complaints about lugging crates of vinyl as the sole reason to use Final Scratch... sorry, I can't shed any tears for Hawtin or whoever uses that excuse. Have any of these guys been even in a rock band before? Even small bands do 10 times more heavy-equipment lugging than touring DJs with small libraries of vinyl with them. Can someone invent the wheelable vinyl crate already, if not already?

I'm not invalidating DJs or any artists who want convenience, but the "I don't want to carry vinyl" excuse sounds pretty weak to me, if it's the ONLY excuse to use Final Scratch. There are far better arguments for defending Final Scratch use, imho.

http://www.ultimate-dj-gear.com/index.php?dept=products_categ&Type=Prod&catid=63

these are always out of stock! Also, EVERYONE uses UDG stuff, their gear is HIGH QUALITY. My bag has been through hell and back.

Dan, THANK YOU. :)

Sound quality is, invariably, a big issue when it comes to performing a DJ set.. and if the turntable mixer setup sounds like shit in comparison to the pro-CD player setup -- which is sadly quite often from my experience -- then DJs are going to use the CD-Rs and CD players... Most DJs do their live mixes from inside a booth anyway, so the whole phenomenon of watching a DJ "do his/her magic" or having weirdo trainspotter dudes is kinda fading, as DJ booths make the DJs more reclusive during the set (which is good and bad.. i.e "I want to be connected with the audience and say hi to my friends" vs. "I don't want some drunk fuck hitting me or spilling his beer on my fucking records while I'm spinning")

http://www.music123.com/Rane-MP4--Two-Bus-Mixer-with-USB--i160099.music?source=shopping

Expect these features on most mixers coming out now or soon. Expect most of them to such. Generally, if you can afford it, stick with Rane, Allen + Heath, Eckler, some Vestax, some Pioneer depending in what you want. Avoid most others, in my experiance.

So is Ableton the way to go if I want to start DJing?

Since I have a very small vinyl collection and a very large mp3 collection?

makes sense

I just don't want to look uncool.

but more seriously, has anyone here used Ableton to DJ? What's it like?

I've been learning it, Curt1s, and over the past couple of months have started to do about an hour or so of my 3+ hour sets in Ableton with a bcd-3000 mixer. It's way more stressful to do Ableton sets than just vinyl or vinyl / ipod sets. Mostly because I'm moving way more music in and our of mixes and probably because I just don't know the software as well as I wish I did. But I really, really enjoy using it, despite the stress. I can simply do way cooler stuff with a computer than I can with a couple of records going at once.

But my plan at this point is definitely, once I get more practice and confidence with Ableton, to be doing an all laptop and mixer show in the (hopefully very near) future.

I own and use Final Scratch and it's awesome. I love to buy vinyl and 12"s, but my main issue is that I can't be spending tons of $$ everytime something new comes out. Like Matthew Dear, I have a drive with tons of high quality Mp3's that I have either purchased from Beatport, ripped or "acquired" over the internet and they play onto the two time-coded pieces of FS vinyl. Why take a crate 25 records out and only have 25 to choose from when you can take just 2 and choose from thousands? I don't know anything about Ableton, but Final Scratch is the DJ on a budget's ultimate dream!

Taking 25 records out = you are not a real dj

Curtis, do you think any of your peers have even owned any vinyl ever?

Other than white stripes 7 inches

If you have the money, Curtis, I'd get decks or Serrato or CD-Js. There's not that much point in being only able to DJ from Ableton as far as I can see, you might as well learn to beatmatch by ear first. I don't mean that in a luddite defend the past way either, just think it's probably more fun and probably just a better intro to it all.

Others may disagree.

my gf has a bigger vinyl collection than I do, she started collecting before I did (but then again we are both Depeche Mode dorks)

I figured beatmatching was still a part of the Ableton learning curve -- obv. I didn't do any real research, I just ILX-searched for the first DJing thread I could find.

Final Scratch sounds intriguing.

Not really, Ableton will basically beatmatch for you.

If you have decks or whatever you'll have to learn to hear two things at once and decide which is faster/slower and beatmatch.

In theory you'd think that mixing this way was just needless hardship and a barrier to creativity but I think Ableton takes DJing beyond just DJing and into production a little. If you feel that's what you want then go for it.

I'd get Ableton for screwing around and making music anyhow, especially if you're planning on pirating it.

But if you do have the money I'd still recommend turntables or cd decks. As I say, others may disagree.

curtis, i bought a set of decks a few months ago along with a mixer, and i practice a lot (and have a suitable number of records, at this point). still A TON OF SHIT to learn-- doing it well takes a lot of time, effort, and irritating the neighbors.

that and it improves the quality of one's computer DJing as well... perhaps before you buy Ableton or Serato, check one of the free DJ tools around. though their interfaces are somewhat shabby at times (and can make your computer bonkers), they give an idea of the difference b/w computer DJing and going the records way.

finally, i do admit that i have been buying more mp3s recently. mostly because i'm a cheapskate, at the moment.

believe me, if I had the vinyl resources to do regular turntable DJing I would. I just started buying vinyl in 2005 and I don't know where to get most of the songs I'm looking for on vinyl :/

Basically, I want to do mp3 DJing and keep it as close as possible to turntable-style mixing. There are tools for this yes?

then you want final scratch because it combines the tactile nature of the vinyl with the convenience of a big ass hard drive.

After more than 2 years with turntables with a lot of honest practice, beat matching is still a challenge for me, and oddly enough, most things I've learned about dj'ing come from doing it digitally via traktor-esque programs (which is certainly much closer to turntable-style mixing than ableton, but still very much a simulation).
One important thing to keep in mind is that these programs all have a very different feel to them, so maybe try some out via demos or what have you first to see what you like.

XP:

serato does too.

if you havent done any research though, you should know that one of the main differences between Abelton and FS and Serato is that with Serato and FS you will still need CD decks or Turntables. You use real decks to manipulate tracks on your hard drive.

However, most abelton users use some kind of USB mixer... right?

Yes. And their mixes somehow end up sounding as flat and one-dimensional as with Traktor. I'll keep buying & lugging vinyl around for the time being, but Serato is the way to go IMO. Looking at hip hop DJs using it at the radio station & techno/house heads at gigs, I think it's a reliable & future-proof travel-friendly solution. Hello Rane, I think I deserve a system for this spontaneous ad copy.

i am still 95% vinyl and 5% cds, but not necc. against serato/FS/abelton.

i got to see Nicky Siano last year and was kind of surprised to see he wasn't playing any vinyl at all and was using a macbook/usb mixer/abelton setup.

he opened up his set with some disco scorcher i didn't recognize: 135 bpm, diva vocals. but what he did was play the accapella and instrumental simultaneously, perfectly in sync of course. so as the track began he EQ'd the lows and the highs on the instrumental way down so that it sounded kind of muddy, but kept the vocals nice and clean. then, when the chorus came in, he threw everything way up, did something crazy with the club's lights, and it completely kicked my ass.

here's a guy who many people will tell you was the first to use several techniques and methods that are standard practice for DJs today, a guy who who rocking parties almost a decade before i was born, and he's blowing my mind with a laptop.

so yeah, the majority of people playing a set on Abelton may sound flat and boring, but that doesn't mean someone who really knows what they're doing can't do something great with it.

Curt1s: why do you want to start DJing? Do you want to play at parties with your friends or at clubs? Are you trying to make your radio show a little more like a club DJ radio show? Do you just want to be able to crossfadebetween tracks?

Do you want to play at parties with your friends or at clubs?

^^ this

Numark and a few other companies have mixers and players that accept USB drives, except their hardware sucks. The Pioneer CDJ1000 has a smart-card reader but only for loop information, of course their control hardware is the best. If the next Pioneer CDJ has a USB interface or a smart-card that can hold mp3s, I'm sold. What I really want is a one piece unit with two CDJ controllers and a builtin quality mixer. With or without the ability to play CDs. Thats what the Numark IDJ2 does, but again, it's hardware and controls aren't Pioneer quality.

Using Ableton seems awesome, I'm just not ready to buy a laptop and have to cart it around, and I like the physical controls of CDJs (and turntables, obv.)

I'm as comfortable using a CDJ as I am vinyl, so Serrato would be irrelevant if I could just plug a harddrive into a CDJ.

can you do live cueing for proper mixing/beatmatching in Ableton?

I'd been thinking about going w/ Traktor Scratch but at this point I think I might just be happier getting better at CDJs (I don't know why they seem so much fucking harder than turntables; just lack of practice I guess) and burning CDRs of the tracks I really want to play out that I only have digitally. I've seen too many fuckups or simple setup hassles with various scratch programs, and I really don't feel like bringing a laptop to a set where it's likely to get beer-soaked or stolen. My only complaint about records at this point is their lack of portability -- I move/travel a lot -- and the fact that I'm getting most promos on MP3 at this point, and I simply can't afford to re-buy everything on vinyl, much as I'd love to. (I do re-buy quite a bit.)

I have to say, CDJs are great, but even the basic shitty CD players can be awesome, there's often that button that basically nudges the music up or down which is great for a quick adjust. You know when you have two records beatmatched and one is slightly slowing down or speeding up and you need to do a little push or pull, I was never good at manipulating the platter directly, but would push or drag the inner label, which, with some records, especially if they're slightly warped, can suddenly become more of a nudge then you want...or stop the whole thing alltogether.

I use a computer with a shuttle control to simulate cdj (DJ 1800) + external mixer

sorry dude, that's not even close. The CDJ has two control surfaces, the top and the sides (like a shuttle and jog). The top, in scratch mode, acts like a turntable, once you apply a bit of pressure to it, it stops the music, then moves/scratches with your movement back and forth. This isn't just for scratching but cutting or just finding the downbeat. The outer rim acts like most other DJ CD players where spinning it in one direction applies a slight increase in tempo, while spinning in the other direction applies a slight decrease.

mine works *exactly* the same as that except I have pitch control bound to buttons

wugga.

most abelton users use some kind of USB mixer... right?

i use a usb mixer called hercules mkII, set up through midi controls for traktor. it works...okay. it's got its screwups, for sure. i mostly play at home though so it's no big deal.

I don't believe you jon!

the club i play at has one of these:

http://www.recordcase.de/cosmoshop/pix/a/g/1081425117-20079.jpg

not quite all the functionality of a Pioneer like dan was explaining, but if you're coming from playing vinyl primarily, it feels a lot more like manipluating a turntable. it also has a nice loop feature and several different levels of pitch adjust.

does it weigh 50 lbs?

can you do live cueing for proper mixing/beatmatching in Ableton?

you can do live cueing if your soundcard has multiple outputs. however, if you are mixing internally with ableton and all your tracks are warped correctly you don't really need to cue. it's the same for beatmatching. track warping lines every song up to the beat 'grid' so they stay in sync. if you are mixing externally (like with another dj) you need a vst called pushandpull and then you can nudge the tempo up and down to beatmatch against cdjs and turntables.

but we mix on one of these:

http://www.mister-deejay.com/MisterDeeJayonline/prispevki/34FRANKFURT2005/slika18.jpg

so i'm probably not the best resource for emerging disc jockey technology.

xxp

Weight: 12.8 lbs

curtis, if you just want to try some software before spending any money, i'd suggest using traktor before ableton. it is *way* easier to get set up and drop mp3s into, and visually it's easy to make sense of.

and then if you decide you dont like deejaying after a few months, you dont have a bunch of expensive equipment/software sitting around.

Yay Urei!
Having used CDs for a few years now (audio, lossless or mp3 files) I have come to distrust them along with most of their players. They scratch (not the good kind) too easily and refuse to play or scan inside tracks or jump in different players etc and you can't do a thing about it.

I mean, Hooray for Urei! nice to see -and use- one of those beasts from time to time.

I'm in the process of switching over to Ableton & Faderfox controller - the biggest selling point to me is no longer having to depend on the club's decks and mixer.

I've played on Rane rotary mixers, annoyingly a few times at venues that didn't have the channel EQ box. I'm supposed to DJ at Club 205 soon which has a Urei, wonder if it has channel EQs? I sometimes really need those channel EQs.

It really sucks if you're used to mixing with the EQ's, but after a while you kind of start to appreciate the simplicity.

ableton looks really complicated, is there an idiots guide/youtube anywhere out there? i've been told that it's better for production work and to look elsewhere if i want a program for live djing

as mentioned above, it's a deep production tool, if you want to do digital djing, go with Traktor or whatever.

why is it called ableton live though? or is ableton live a different product from ableton? what with with pete tong, twitch and other esteemed dj types using it to dj out with, im wondering if it's the best out there but also the most difficult?

it's easy, really easy to learn. but doing a whole set on ableton can be really boring for you and your audience - i've been bored to tears several times this year by djs doing their entire sets on ableton. on the other hand i would love to hear someone like nicky siano (as mentioned above) using it. i tend to use it as another turntable and mix with it using the cursor up and down keys the same way i would use a pitch control. on the rare occasions when i've had to do a whole set using it (records got lost by the airline / no monitors / decks jumping uncontrollably) i've really missed the physicality of actually mixing. if i was starting out now and hadn't invested so much time getting to know ableton inside out and programming tons of midi stuff into it to use when djing i think i would probably go down the serato route.

ps - live and ableton live are one and the same. it is called 'live' as it was initially developed as a new way for artists (as opposed to djs) to perform their live sets.

if i was starting out now and hadn't invested so much time getting to know ableton inside out and programming tons of midi stuff into it to use when djing i think i would probably go down the serato route.

good to know!

everyone I know seems to be changing to serato these days, hear nothing but good things about it. I have cd-js tho so no real point for me. also not sure I'd like to bring my laptop to gigs.

I've done all of the above. Using Ableton Live to do a traditional beat-match-set or whatever is BORING for a DJ. Because Live "warps" the tracks for you, straightforward djing in Live is as about as exciting as making a playlist and waiting for the songs to start, finish.

The real quality jive juicines of Ableton Live DJing is doing remixes, edits, effects, sends, audio farts and all around musical nonsense ON THE FLY. Picture this.... playing 7 tracks at once, looping the kick of track 1, stretching 2x the verse of track 2, randomly throwing in vocal samples from track 3 whenever you want, playing track 4 backwards, playing acapella of track 5 with and sending to some automated envelope to only allow the 3rd beat to be heard...etc.

To get an idea of what kind of THRALLING stuff Live can do check out abletonlivedj.com.

The real quality jive juicines of Ableton Live DJing is doing remixes, edits, effects, sends, audio farts and all around musical nonsense ON THE FLY. Picture this.... playing 7 tracks at once, looping the kick of track 1, stretching 2x the verse of track 2, randomly throwing in vocal samples from track 3 whenever you want, playing track 4 backwards, playing acapella of track 5 with and sending to some automated envelope to only allow the 3rd beat to be heard...etc.

yup, but you can only do that so much before you grind the crowd into the ground with a sonic overdose. BUT, the reasons you state is why i do love it, that and the ability to warp and mix non drum machine tracks and generally f**k with people's heads. less however is definitely more.

Taking 25 records out = you are not a real dj

-- Catsupppppppppppppp

That's right, and I'm not pretending to be. I think Curt1sStephens is looking to get STARTED as a DJ, not head to Berlin to play clubs next weekend. Final Scratch saves you a ton of $$ on vinyl until Kompakt signs him and he starts making the big bucks :)

Taking 25 records out = you are a real DJ with actually good records, will play all of them front to back and it will be better than haphazard selections from hundreds of lame, novelty tracks.