Pre-'Spiral Scratch' Independent Rock

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does virgin count as an indie?

was any rock music of note (aka that i've heard of) released by independent labels before punk? what did these labels release? is punk 'really' about the failure of the music industry to respond to the yoot demographic's demand in some way?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 9 December 2005 10:37 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, Virgin counted as indie - but not by 1976 I think. I'm pretty sure we've done this before.

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 10:38 (nineteen years ago)

― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 9 December 2005 10:45 (nineteen years ago)

A lot of famous and important labels were technically indies but I suspect, by 1976, a lot of them weren't anymore - which is the point of the thread I suppose

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 10:47 (nineteen years ago)

but your record punter of 1973, who bought virgin, did he see himself as a fan apart?

(have we done this b4? it's hard to search for...)

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 9 December 2005 10:49 (nineteen years ago)

Yes. Virgin was a total hippy label. 49p albums etc.

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 10:58 (nineteen years ago)

The same was probably true of Charisma. What we need now is an old hippy to come along and tell us all about it.

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 10:59 (nineteen years ago)

there was fuckloads of private press stuff in the 60s & 70s. that's as indie as you're gonna get.

― jim p. irrelevant (electricsound), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:00 (nineteen years ago)

garage rock, psych..

― jim p. irrelevant (electricsound), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:00 (nineteen years ago)

who was on charisma?

actually yeah, which 'famous' bands were on indies? i spose a lot of the british psych mustve been on indies really. were they set up to release psych, or were they just clearing houses for unloved recorded sound? any books?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:04 (nineteen years ago)

There weren't many bands that started on indies that went on to get signed and successful.

A few released one-off singles, but only a couple had hits.

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:10 (nineteen years ago)

You're not writing an article on the history of independent labels by any chance are you? (xpost)

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:11 (nineteen years ago)

Blue Note.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:14 (nineteen years ago)

Oh wait.. 'Rock'.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:15 (nineteen years ago)

actually no! but it is related to a writing project.

bibliography wd be appreciated lol.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:15 (nineteen years ago)

Virgin was all Henry Cow, Faust, Virgin, Tangerine Dream, Gong, Kevin Coyne - and those were their most commercial acts! Oh and Mike Oldfield. Is there actually a definition of what constitutes an "independent label"?

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:25 (nineteen years ago)

oh dear god no

― jim p. irrelevant (electricsound), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:26 (nineteen years ago)

Well what does it mean then?

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:27 (nineteen years ago)

It was all about 'distribution', i.e. if it was dist. by EMI, you were not.

When Stock/Aitken/Waterman set up their PWL label, they created their own distribution system, so became indie by definition and killed off the 'indie' chart by filling it up w/Kylie and so on.

Actually, a lot of Kylie love was probably due to her being top of the indie charts a lot.

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:28 (nineteen years ago)

well, yeah zackly -- the article's abt 'independent' film, also a slippery defn.

i guess independence is just labels who aren't in the biz 'loop', who struggle to place their warez in the shops.

wonder how much this was converted, perceived as a 'political' distance from the industry, b4 punk.

xxxpost

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:30 (nineteen years ago)

virtually all pre-1955 rock was put out by one of the countless independent labels that sprang up across the US after WWII; sam phillips' sun was the most famous and probably the most important, but there were lots more. charlie gillett's "sound of the city" is a great overview of this era but tosches' "unsung heroes" has some good stuff on it too if you want a quicker read.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:30 (nineteen years ago)

was '70s virgin distributed well/by emi?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:31 (nineteen years ago)

Well Virgin was definitely perceived as having a 'political' distance from the industry - maybe not by Branson (tho he went along with it) but certainly by other people who worked there and by bands on the label

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:32 (nineteen years ago)

was any rock music of note (aka that i've heard of) released by independent labels before punk?

The Trouser Press Record Guide goes out of its way to comment on the Flaming Groovies' debut album, Sneakers (1968), as a pioneering example of a self-released, private-press "indie" disc, but the early days of rock'n' roll were filled with oddball, maverick little labels.

What did these labels release? is punk 'really' about the failure of the music industry to respond to the yoot demographic's demand in some way?

Those strike me as two very different questions. I always viewed punk as a sociological phenomenon first and a music-industry phenomenon second. But this gets into complicated questions about what you believe the true origins of 'punk' to be, what counts as 'punk,' whether the U.S. or the U.K. got there first and hence whose story is the more canonical, etc etc etc. I would say that a great many people were emboldened by punk's lessons once it achieved liftoff, but that strikes me as a byproduct rather than the actual aim.

― Myke Weiskopf (Myke Weiskopf), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:33 (nineteen years ago)

Ptooff!

http://www.popsike.com/pics/szepeda/20030726/2547810894.jpg

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:44 (nineteen years ago)

Bomp! Records, no? Started early 70s I think.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:45 (nineteen years ago)

i spose with 80s indie (i wasn't even alive then but here goes) you have a real alienation from the 'mainstream' -- a separate 'indie chart', and importantly an lack of tv presence. was there such a big diff between indie and major-signed acts in the 70s? (i guess the industry had more money in the 70s, so cd afford to sign less wham-bam big-selling acts, can't remember examples i just read that on blissblog once).

xpost

sho did bomp! release?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:46 (nineteen years ago)

Perhaphs they didn't have more money to sign less wham-bam big-selling acts, perhaps they had more inclination to sign less wham-bam big-selling acts. Alternately because there were all these indie labels to pickup uncommercial acts (and pay them peanuts and rip them off just as badly as the majors would) there was no need for majors to sign them.

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:49 (nineteen years ago)

First record on Bomp! was "You Tore Me Down" 7" by Flamin' Groovies in 1974 according to their website. Can't really tell if they released much else prior to 1976 though.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Friday, 9 December 2005 11:55 (nineteen years ago)

There were punk indies before Spiral Scratch, especially in Cleveland, like Pere Ubu's Hearthen and Styrenes single on Mustard, those both pre-date any UK indie punk.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Friday, 9 December 2005 14:13 (nineteen years ago)

US had millions of pre-punk indies (partially due to the size of the country - regional hits being picked up by majors and spreading throughout the country.)

UK had very much less.

That's important to remember.

And a lot of UK indies were none rock - like folk label Topic (1st/longest running UK indie) or Reggae labels. Private press LPs don't really count as indie bcz they had no distribution and were only pressed in quantities of 99 copies (bcz you didn't have to pay tax then.) As Dadaismus's pic of a Deviants album shows there was indie activity pre-punk though.

It's surprising how little info there is on early UK independant stuff. Someone should really write a book.

― Raw Patrick (Raw Patrick), Friday, 9 December 2005 15:04 (nineteen years ago)

Charisma's "big" acts at the beginning were Van Der Graaf Generator, Lindisfarne, Genesis and String Driven Thing. Possibly a few others, I forget. Oh yeah, Rare Bird as well.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 9 December 2005 15:06 (nineteen years ago)

John Betjeman!

― We Buy a Hammer For Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 9 December 2005 15:06 (nineteen years ago)

John Betjeman stuff suprisingly good!

― Raw Patrick (Raw Patrick), Friday, 9 December 2005 15:50 (nineteen years ago)

Dandelion?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 9 December 2005 16:25 (nineteen years ago)

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