What "eastern" music were 60's jazzers actually listening to? S/D, etc.

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Coltrane, Lateef, Sanders, Sun Ra et al, plus everyone who was playing with them and listening to them (ie almost everyone) back in the day were using eastern scales and rhythms, and obvs. influenced by the ideas/moods of Indian and farther-eastern musics... The relationship between free jazz and "world music" has been talked to death, but I just realized that I have no idea where this influence actually came from.. Were there a few artists who the Big Names latched onto and borrowed ideas from, or was it picked up from travelling, or maybe just living in a multi-cultural setting? Was this music as widely listened to as it was borrowed from at the time? If so, what are some of the records they were listening to, which are best, etc. ??

― SONNY, Saturday, 10 December 2005 21:03 (twenty years ago)

Good question. I'd love to know specific records. I wish there were a book called Sun Ra's Listening (just like there are entire books devoted to the reading matter of certain poets). I assume Folkways would loom pretty large.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Saturday, 10 December 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

The name of John Coltrane's son, "Ravi" may give a clue.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Saturday, 10 December 2005 22:10 (twenty years ago)

Yes, a clue! But I really want to believe Coltrane's appreciation of Indian music goes deeper than the one name everybody knows.. It seems it would be -- I don't hear that much raga in Trane except maybe in the structure (as he is distinctly not a droner), though my experience with Shankar is cursory. But maybe I'm looking too deep. Maybe he just lifted the scales and moods from Shankar and applied it to his own style ?

― SONNY, Saturday, 10 December 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

I think Pran Nath was a source for a bunch of those guys, too, although I don't know anything solid.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Saturday, 10 December 2005 22:37 (twenty years ago)

I don't have the reference at my fingertips, but I'm sure that I read somewhere that Coltrane paid attention to Bismillah Khan and other masters of the shenai.

― brianiac (briania), Saturday, 10 December 2005 22:52 (twenty years ago)

From what I remember reading the Sun Ra bio, his faux orientalisms came mostly from "inauthentic" sources like movie soundtrack exotica and more directly through his involvement with Fletcher Henderson (listen to "Shanghai Shuffle"). Coltrane and Sanders interest in the same area had to have stemmed at least partly from their association with Ra. I'm not sure that much indian music was available on record in the US until the late 60s and even then it really didn't go much "deeper than the one name everybody knows."

There was also a popular interest in all things egyptian and african among african americans at the time and I think this connected into a more general turn toward "eastern" styles and trappings.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Saturday, 10 December 2005 22:58 (twenty years ago)

Indian music and culture was known to the beats. The beats dug jazz. Coltrane began meditation exercises in the late-50s. Ali Akabr Khan and Ravi both came to America in the mid- to late-50s and played concerts across the United States. Angel released a record of Indian music in '55.

Sure, Ravi Shanker is the "one name everybody knows" but that doesn't mean the dude isn't a true master of his instrument, which he is. And, Coltrane was influenced by him.

― QuantumNoise (Justin Farrar), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:21 (twenty years ago)

I would assume that a lot of this movement comes from preconceptions about what "eastern" music sounds like, having heard it in film soundtracks, etc., but that music was certainly available to the heads who sought it out. They were all touring Europe, and certainly a few of them got over to North Africa at some point to experience Arabic music first-hand. Research reveals RS is right that Folkways was releasing vaguely themed "world" compilations at the time, and a handful of artists got records released on Ravi's heels. One important question would be to what degree jazz was actually interacting with this music as it was being released/discovered, and how much of it was just hot air. Maybe someone is familiar enough with both to give specific examples of similarities?

Yusef Lateef's role in this is interesting. The question was partly inspired by this bit from AMG's review of his Eastern Sounds: "Lateef had long been interested in Eastern music, long before John Coltrane had ever shown any public interest anyway, so this Moodsville session (which meant it was supposed to be a laid-back ballad-like record), recorded in 1961, was drenched in Lateef's current explorations of Eastern mode and interval, as well as tonal and polytonal

xpost

― SONNY, Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:23 (twenty years ago)

That "everybody knows" him is not a dig against Shankar, clearly. I was just pointing out that that wasn't a very difficult clue to unearth (though obvs a very good discussion point)

― SONNY, Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:28 (twenty years ago)

http://home.earthlink.net/~ewcc/newsltr/coltrane.htm

This is an interesting article, which you might find informative and a good starting point.

― QuantumNoise (Justin Farrar), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:37 (twenty years ago)

I seem to remember reading that Coltrane studied Morroccan music, and I think that influence is much more apparent in his music than Indian music.

― *Jazz Douchebag* Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 10 December 2005 23:43 (twenty years ago)

Les Baxter is the reference I was looking for in reference to Sun Ra. Evidently he was a big fan of Baxter's soundtracks and he may have picked up a lot of the eastern stylistic touches from there.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:05 (twenty years ago)

can't be much help but la monte young talks a bit about what it was possible to hear on record at around the same time in this interview. it might be worth tracking interviews with terry riley (there might be one on the same site).

― -ajh, Sunday, 11 December 2005 00:23 (twenty years ago)

That Lamonte Young interview is cool. He actually mentions that record on Angel from '55 that I mentioned. It seems to be a key recording for Miles, Coltrane, Young, and ton of other "cats".

I would hazard a guess and say the inlfuence of Eastern music on Coltrane is more influenced by this recording and the appearance of Shankar in America in-and-around '57 than via Sun Ra's interest in "exotica".

I also read somewhere that Coltrane's intial exposure to Eastern "religion" was in the early-50s from Dizzy Gillespe -- if that even matters.

― QuantumNoise (Justin Farrar), Sunday, 11 December 2005 01:32 (twenty years ago)

Ah! Pran Nath is thanked by Don Cherry in the liner notes to "Actions," so booyah.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Sunday, 11 December 2005 01:47 (twenty years ago)

Ornette Coleman released an album with the Master Musicians of Joujouka called "Dancing in your Head".

― vartman (novaheat), Sunday, 11 December 2005 08:33 (twenty years ago)

"With" meaning there was about five minutes of them tacked on at the end. (Anyway, that's from the 80's.)

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Sunday, 11 December 2005 17:15 (twenty years ago)

"midnight sunrise" 4:45 actually of ornette (and robt palmer) playing with the master musicians. released in 1976 k thx bye

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Sunday, 11 December 2005 17:21 (twenty years ago)

robt palmer the critic/clarinetist not the singer BTW

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Sunday, 11 December 2005 17:22 (twenty years ago)

Oh. I guess I didn't hear it until the 80's and just made assumptions. I have a copy, actually, but it's in a box in my closet.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Sunday, 11 December 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

My sealed box of vinyl.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Sunday, 11 December 2005 17:36 (twenty years ago)

Im not that crazy abt "MS" but oh man the rest of that album is a ripsnorting harmelodic hoedown, sorta like Ornette's equivalent of On The Corner. Pull it out the next time you're organizing.

xpost -- oh well my vinyl is stored away too :(

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Sunday, 11 December 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

So the clarinettist actually is the same guy who wrote Rock & Roll: An Unruly History?

3xpost

― Sundar (sundar), Sunday, 11 December 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)

yeah he also played clarinet w/ the 60s band Insect Trust who made a couple-three albums that I've never heard. their lead singer Nancy jeffries went on to become a major label A&R exec in the 80s.

Palmer was NY Times pop critic for many years. He passed away in 97/98 somewhere around there. There was a wake for him in NYC featuring a eulogy/performance from Patti Smith who remembered that "Bob was the only critic who encouraged my clarinet playin'"

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Sunday, 11 December 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

Here's a good quote:

"Ben Ratliff: Were you listening to any Indian music?

Sonny Sharrock: No. I listened to Indian music when everybody else did. Everyone said Coltrane was listening to Indian music, so we listened to Indian music. I like the food much better. It's a beautiful music, but as far as its application to jazz is concerned, it's limited, like anything you transfer from one setting to another."

from here http://www.joemcphee.com/jny/sharrock/ratliff89.html

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Sunday, 11 December 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

I don't doubt that. My point was simply that eastern influences were already a part of jazz in an "inauthentic" way even before Indian music became more widely known and available on record. So Coltrane's interest in Indian music may have been deeper and less superficial than something like "Shanghai Shuffle" but I still think they are part of the same continuum.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Sunday, 11 December 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

You can see a similar progression in rock music where one year the sitar was just another gimmicky flavor to throw in the mix and then the next year you have George Harrison attempting to seriously study sitar with Ravi Shankar.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Sunday, 11 December 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

see also Far East Suite Duke Ellington (1967) and tourist Dave Brubeck's Jazz Impressions of Eurasia (1958)

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Sunday, 11 December 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

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