on second glance, avril lavigne

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Can we give Avril some more credit now in a 2005 context? After influencing almost all female pop (most notably Kelly Clarkson and since U been gone) can we reexamine Avril? Personally I think her singles were all great and even her albums weren't have bad if you take them for what they are.

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 05:56 (twenty years ago)

You make it sound like she's dead.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 05:58 (twenty years ago)

I hated her until the astonishing "I'm With You" forced me to re-evaluate, now I'm of the opinion that she's not released a bad single, and all this despite her having made a complete mess of the singles off the second album, sitting on some of her best songs like "Take Me Away", "Together", "Slipped Away" and "Freak Out". She is very good at what she does.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 06:08 (twenty years ago)

... but she's punkist!

― StanM (StanM), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 06:16 (twenty years ago)

ha. thats awesome on so many levels.

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 06:26 (twenty years ago)

all this despite her having made a complete mess of the singles off the second album.

The songs chosen as singles from the second album make a lot of sense to me, although I agree that "Together" would have worked well as a single. It's actually Rachel Stevens who made a complete mess of the singles off of her second album, although that's another thread.

― John Hunter, Tuesday, 13 December 2005 08:05 (twenty years ago)

"Nobody's Home" instead of "Slipped Away" makes no sense at all, John! "Slipped Away" is like teen-mall-punk power-ballad BLISS of the highest order. It'd have the 17-year olds weeping at their proms for months. I even get a little something in my eye when I play it.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 08:18 (twenty years ago)

aim into the folded-up tissue next time

― gear (gear), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 08:32 (twenty years ago)

ILM is a really odd place to begin the Avril reassessment since traditionally there's been loads of Avril-love here

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)

Sk8ter Boi (9.8)
I'm With You (9.5)
Complicated (9.0)
Don't Tell Me (7.8)

----

My Happy Ending (5.0)
Nobody's Home (4.0)

― The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:03 (twenty years ago)

Matos, he said "more credit", implying there's been some, i.e. where she was just a creator of great fun pop songs earlier, you could definitely say her success has paved the way for a lot of other artists also doing a lot of other fun pop songs and as such she should get some props for that too.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:04 (twenty years ago)

is the second album worth seeking out? i kinda forgot to bother, despite loving the first one bigstyle.

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:05 (twenty years ago)

Charlie: YES.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:06 (twenty years ago)

(I could do you some YSIs if you wanted)

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:09 (twenty years ago)

by all means!

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:16 (twenty years ago)

I dont know, I think I see a direct line of blink 182 it avril to rock girls. actually before that was green day. yeah, green day technically influenced heavily or ARE the only big rock acts out now, period.

― Smart college campus walker destined, Tuesday, 13 December 2005 09:20 (twenty years ago)

yeah, the second album is WAY GOOD. but also the real cd is crippled with fucking DRM - argh.

― sean gramophone (Sean M), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

yeah edward o, but what I'm saying is that she's gotten plenty of the kind of credit he's specifying she should receive more of here. she's gotten "fun pop song" luv and "stylistic progenitor of sorts" luv pretty consistently that I've seen. nothing wrong with his ardor, just seemed oddly placed.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

There've been pockets of dissent from that line, tho I can't quite remember examples (and I'm not just talking about Alex in NYC-esque diatribes, but anyway). But I think that generally, a look back reveals that she's actually a lot more than that. I think, even though something like "My Happy Ending" isn't her work, she's a good songwriter, and her voice is a lot better than people give it credit for - I've read that on here a few times but not in any HUGE amount of detail.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:47 (twenty years ago)

Amy Studt was better, but she had really shitty videos.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

Amy Studt was better, but she had really shitty videos.

LOL.

I have my last, significantly-younger boyfriend to thank for making me actually listen to Avril Lavigne, and now I enjoy her in spite of myself. I completely detest "Sk8er Boi," but "Fall to Pieces" is one of the best teen-breakup pop songs I've heard in twenty years. And so it goes: I have a highly polarized relationship with her stuff. I love her on x and hate her on y.

Under My Skin is much more ballad-heavy than Let Go and ditches a lot of the debut's lite-pop tendencies. All the Chantal Kreviazuk co-credits pretty much explain that one. And whereas I think the second album tends to get a bit samey, the strong material is right up there.

Never could get into Kelly Clarkson, though...

― Myke Weiskopf (Myke Weiskopf), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

"Ladder In My Tights" by Amy Studt is as good as anything Avril has done, yes, "Under The Thumb" less so, but still grand.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

Amy Studt was better, but she had really shitty videos.
-- Dom Passantino (juror...), December 13th, 2005.

maybe this is true. i think she needed more faux-hip hop digital edits, kind of thing.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:34 (twenty years ago)

Studt was not better. I think Dom means 'fitter', naughty man.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

god she's awful

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

Studt was neither better nor fitter.

Lavigne is great although I don't think I could take a whole album's worth of all those guitars. 'I'm With You', 'My Happy Ending' and 'Sk8er Boi' are a quite stunnign triptych.

Also classic for ridiculously bad lyrics, viz "Let's talk it's over, it's not like we're dead" (which then rhymes with another 'dead'!)

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

No I agree with Dom, Studt was definitely more attractive. But I'm putting words in his...hand here.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

no no no "dead" rhymes with 'said'!

I love Lavigne but I never really listen to her albums that much, I can't take the concentration of panda-eyed sulk. And she's totally fitter than Amy Studt.

― baby i'm waiting (cis), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

no 'said' rhymes with 'thread'! a-b-a-b rhyme scheme i think.

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

actually no you are right, i looked at the second verse and it's aabb.

that still doesn't change the first verse's a=b crapness.

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

Amy Studt is not fit. Also, her boyfriend in the "Under The Thumb" video is very ugly. One wonders why she had him tied up, I'd have been glad to see him gone if I were here.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

were HER.

― edward o (edwardo), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:39 (twenty years ago)

aw i started listening to 'my happy ending' to prove my point and I always forget how very much I wuv it. she's so hiccuppy upset!

To be fair to Amy Studt, she wore great tights.

― baby i'm waiting (cis), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

Which was the one in overdrive?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

I liked "He Wasn't".

― Sundar (sundar), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)

Avril is hands down gorgeous.

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:15 (twenty years ago)

if you go in for rodents, yeah

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

You make it sound like she's dead.

::::MUST:::: FIGHT::::::TASTELESS::::URGE::::::TO:::SAY:::: "If Only!"

She was crap then and she's crap now.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

Talk of "influence" here is such absolute bollocks.

More like "oh, that works" clueing in major labels to say "Hey there! you liked that? well, here's 50 more of the same!! thank us for existing!" Of course some of it will stick to the charts, but it's mostly closer to copycatting for $$ than anything deep.

Which isn't to say I don't dig her. She's emo without the hideous pretension, Sk8er Boi was one of the best, giddiest pieces of pro-tools digitally assisted 'rock' since Ash's "Burn Baby Burn"... and yeah, she's just got the knack basically.

― login name (fandango), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:19 (twenty years ago)

She's more a raccoon than a rodent, I'd say.

― baby i'm waiting (cis), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:20 (twenty years ago)

The issue is, its fun to play the band X was influenced by band Y game, but often times the game is masturbatory. There are many cases where similar sound bands are purely out of coincidence rather than actually being influenced.

Whereas the world of heavily-produced heavily-thoughtout music that Avril is a part of clearly is heavily influenced by its predesssors and analyzed down to the minute details. Furthermore, the Avril formula is a increasingly copied one, so its interesting to reflect on its influence thus far and for the future.

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:20 (twenty years ago)

I'm with Stephen -- hard to say that Avril has actually "influenced" anyone as much as being the most successful industry-generated product at a certain time. Others from that same genetic line are out at the same time, will follow. I'm sure most of us, if we could be bothered, could easily point out all the Avril anticedents.

― Mitya (mitya), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

She was ~~crap~~fluff then and she's ~~crap~~fluff now.

Depends on your tolerance level for fluff I suppose, fluff can be touching too.

― login name (fandango), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:30 (twenty years ago)

"The issue is, its fun to play the band X was influenced by band Y game"

funny, i thought X were influenced by the Doors and Rockabilly.

― latebloomer: Deutsch Bag (latebloomer), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:39 (twenty years ago)

Thats exactly what I mean. We can say X was definitely influenced by Rockabilly, and even Doors produced, but often theres just a lack of primary source to say definitively that a band was influenced by another band. I am pretty damn certain that sony music investing millions of dollars to manufacture a song/image like Avril pays heavy attention to what worked. Moreover that directly translates to then acts within the critically-acclaimed realm. Avril's formula was at the time at least somewhat different from the other bubblegum pop, and will be one increasingly used. Now what the causes of her sound are is up in the air, but...

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:46 (twenty years ago)

a google img search for Studt reveals numerous pics of her looking a lot more like Tori Amos than i remembered.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:52 (twenty years ago)

cis otm

http://www.nps.gov/cuva/kidstuff/alphabet/images/raccoon.jpg

"AH'M WITH YUUUHOOOHWUUUHHHOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH"

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:53 (twenty years ago)

I still can't stand most of her songs but "Nobody's Home" is beautiful and there's something beautifully quaint about a US teen-oriented singer who didn't first get famous through a reality TV show or movie.

― 'Twan (miccio), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

Ha. I like that phrase, beautifully quaint. But the question isn't if Avril is good or not, the question is how much did Avril influence others.
nsfw racoon

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:04 (twenty years ago)

where is mark s when you need him

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:05 (twenty years ago)

The critical mind quivers at the possibility of Avril recording a whole album of distortion-heavy, Dave Friedmann-produced vulva-rock.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

Avril can make my quiver any day.

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:13 (twenty years ago)

she should work with Steve Albini next

― login name (fandango), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:14 (twenty years ago)

that would be a treat!

― latebloomer: Deutsch Bag (latebloomer), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:16 (twenty years ago)

I could sooner see Albini suck a cock on the Golden Gate Bridge (to paraphrase Patton Oswalt) than work with Avril....but then, he did work with Bush.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:18 (twenty years ago)

Albini and avril is almost a contridiction when half the point of her music is over-production. That said Albini has worked with plenty of not-so-great acts besides Bush.

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

I think i goes something like -
Avril's success basically showed that the market was there, right? And then a series of attempts to tap into that market kind of failed - Fefe Dobson for example, Amy Studt was a one-hit wonder in the US I think (these == comparable to the blonde-pop-girl detritus that surrounded the success of britney, yer willa fords and early jessica simpsons and whoever it was did 'crush'.) But then Ashlee managed to be successful, had that MTV-show schtick to make her interesting, and so the girl-does-angsty-guitar-pop idea had become stong enough, culturally, for Kelly Clarkson to use it and succeed.

Abby who does poptext had this really interesting theory on how girls-with-guitars music was a younger-girl-friendly version of more fashionable, 'cooler', male indie rock - a little sister version of what teen big brothers were into. (I may have reinterpreted this somewhat.)

― baby i'm waiting (cis), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:21 (twenty years ago)

By culturally you mean ILM culture or critical acclaim? Because certainly Avril is as at least as important to mainstream culture as Kelly C.

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:27 (twenty years ago)

I mean Avril had the 'teen punk look' if you like but her singles tend to be pretty much guitar-heavy softrock, no?

xpost
Culturally I mean neither ILM nor critical acclaim but mainstream - I think Avril's more important to mainstream culture than Kelly C. It was Avril's success that made this brand of girl-with-guitar pop important in mainstream culture, and for a while it was an Avril-specifc brand (if you like), so no-one else could quite succeed at it to the same level.

― baby i'm waiting (cis), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:32 (twenty years ago)

Girl with guitar pop with big before Avril (re: vanessa carlton (piano, I know I know), michelle branch, etc etc). I think avril is omre than just guitar heavy softrock. She incorporates some levels of poppunk, emo, and so on.

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:42 (twenty years ago)

The popularity of Kelly C's singles which are not 'since you been gone' mean that it's no longer 'Avril Lavigne + a load of minor successes/one hit wonders', which I think it basically was.

(just as-- you could argue that for a while it was 'britney + a load of minor successes/one hit wonders' okay some of these were christina aguilera and some, well, jennifer paige, but. it was britney who made blonde girlpop viable, and the minigenre belonged to her.)

― baby i'm waiting (cis), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:42 (twenty years ago)

bah xpost good point! I can remember people talking about Avril as someone in the Michelle Branch uhm school of girl pop. Which I think you could say when she'd just released 'complicated' but after 'sk8er boi' there was this sense of her as female version of the pop-punk that was popular at the time, the other side to Sum 41 and oh I dunno those other American Busted type bands. I'm not sure that was so... I believed in that at the time and now I think it was mostly image. She has the crunching guitars, yeah, she does definitely take from other genres, but I think the core is softrock and she was very very successful in disguising.

Pre-Avril was girl with guitar pop; she brought in girl with heavy guitar pop, perhaps?

(the thing is that Kelly C doesn't really have the teenpunk image, and she's taken the softrock thing further, but kept the big rock guitars)

― baby i'm waiting (cis), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:53 (twenty years ago)

why does alex in NYC?

― RJG (RJG), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)

avril's own roots mostly lie around the alanis area though, don't they - i would say commercial version of morissette were it not for alanis's own success, maybe kiddie version of that specific kind of angst? (and indeed similar kind of light-heartedness too: 'hand in my pocket' => 'complicated')

kelly c is mixing in some sheryl crow to that.

― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 15:59 (twenty years ago)

The thing is she transcends the whole trl poppunk thing, into just incorporating other guitar rock genres into the music. I mean its not even nessessarily heavier. Alanis is pretty otm.

Also Kelly Clarkson isnt the only Avril influenced person. While maybe Kelly = Avril + sheryl Crow... its certainly more than that

― Stephen C (ihope), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 16:03 (twenty years ago)

why does alex in NYC?

Why does I what?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 16:18 (twenty years ago)

Why does I what?

the man with the power, what power, who do, you do

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 16:40 (twenty years ago)

DO WHAT

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 16:41 (twenty years ago)

Alex in NYC with Charlotte, yesterday:

http://membres.lycos.fr/elfecity/JarethAndBabeX.jpg

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 13 December 2005 16:41 (twenty years ago)

two months pass...

wow you guys r sad. sorry not in a bad way but u no i like avril im onli 13 but shes 2 old 4 the teen rebel thing n really she cant sing trust me iv hear her live SHE CANT SING AT ALL its those vocal editing things which make her sound good n some of her soongs r actually quite gd but the fact some dnt make sense at all such as the song "too much im askin 4" (or wotever) she goes on about how annoying the guy is bein 2 her n then she goes n says is that 2 much tht im askin 4 WELL EXPLAIN ATLEAST WOT UR ASKIN 4

― nirvana rulessssss, Thursday, 16 February 2006 15:20 (twenty years ago)

God, her second album is so catchy. I used to listen to it in my car a whole lot. Now I know the words to pretty much every song on there.
I think she's kind of similar to Jagged Little Pill Alanis. I think that is a great album.

― Harpal (harpal), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:21 (twenty years ago)

It's funny because when "Sk8er Boi" came out, I was like, she's done, there's no way she can have any more singles as catchy as this. Boy, was I wrong.

― Harpal (harpal), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:23 (twenty years ago)

I'm enjoying the phrase "guitar-heavy softrock." Sort of like Slade and the Dolls and the Sex Pistols and Nirvana (only dif between softrock and loudrock being that the former sounds good). (Don't mind me, I'm just being a troll.)

Her chords are sometimes more goth than Slade-Dolls-Pistols-Nirvana, though.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 16 February 2006 18:48 (twenty years ago)

not that this has anything to do with the merits of her rekkids, but she was easily the worst interviewee I've ever had to deal with…

― veronica moser (veronica moser), Thursday, 16 February 2006 19:49 (twenty years ago)

I'm not suprised, she comes across as a brainless stoner in most all of the interviews I've seen of her.

I prefer to look at her with the sound off.

That having been said, she's the best there is at what she does.

― Erock LAzron, Friday, 17 February 2006 00:10 (twenty years ago)

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