How Twee Can Thee Be?

Also how maybe the problem is twee that thinks it has heft vs. twee that is just defiantly and unabashedly twee (which can actually give it heft, I think). Amelie vs. first Beat Happening record FITE (although to blow my own analogy I enjoyed Amelie but rarely listen to the first Beat Happening record).

Googling for "tweeist band in the world", I found out about a band from York called LADYBIRD LADYBIRD. I got a little too creeped out to explore further.

The twee-est records I have are by the Happy Balloon and La Casa Azul. One is mellow, and one is summery and upbeat.

As far as actual evidence is concerned, the Black Bean & Placenta label has probably out-tweed Cub with AIKAGI.

"Peeggy Bonk... Peeggy Bonk"

yeah, Aikagi are cool...well, I like the song I have by them on the Intellecto's Manifesto.

A sign of twee is compilation albums, with lots of bands with perky names and pastel clours or pictures from 1970's fashion catalogues in the packaging.

Are Mathlette twee?

The bands I know of that exploit tweeness to its highest bestest level (cf. Orange Cake Mix, Field Mice, Cat's Miaow, Cannanes, Heavenly, Boyracer, SMALL FACTORY <---- crossover point(s)?) are also groups prone to banging the other end of Nitsuh's juryrigged Scale O' Twee. And, y'know, regardless of how loud or snotty it gets, a lot of poppy emo (hola, Promise Ring) is more twee than, say, the Extra Glenns (a group that has seeds of tweeness nestled in their fertile loam, as well as associations with Harriet Records, a purveyor of some tweeness, yet escapes such a semi-damning ghetto via the Glenns' excellent songwriting & arrangement skills).

Having never heard Cub, the closest I've come to experiencing the full power of Twee is via the Softies' _It's Love_, an album that's too damn nice and pretty for its own good. Twee, for me, is exemplified by a strange amalgam of craft and ineptitude shone through a prism of middle-American-type flatness where everything is Nice. Not crazy happy, not wistfully nostalgic, not bitter-yet- friendly - just Nice. Ick poo ^ n (n --> infinity).

Brian's post reminds me of a Trolley Bus compilation somewhere in my possession, with probably about 10 bands that could possibly break Aikagi's stranglehold of the twee stump.

The Tweeist band name of all time has to be the greek band the Kissamatic Lovebubbles, whose song "Total Hangover" on the Try a Little Sunshine all greek band compilation is absolutely amazing in that it's a totally brilliant catchy pop number (sort of like the Lovelies or early Creation stuff) despite the band's inabilty to play w/ the drummer in any way shape or form.

I heartily recommend finding this gem - plus if you get the compilation you also get to hear the amazing Jaywalkers mid-eightys number "(you cant be) happy all the time". A lost classic.

See, the Softies are a great point of discussion, David, insofar as people's evaluations of their work almost always come down to: Is This Too Twee For You?

Orange Cake Mix, Field Mice, Cat's Miaow, Cannanes, Heavenly, Boyracer, SMALL FACTORY

I think: Orange Cake Mix have enough dreaminess going on that the twee ceases to be as salient; the Field Mice are indeed twee as fuck, and I again imagine plenty of people who might otherwise really enjoy the content having that knee-jerk Ick Too Twee reaction; don't know Cat's Miaow all that well; Cannanes I don't think of as twee so much as just shambly, insofar as there's plenty of gritty-emoting in some of their incarnations; Boyracer I've never thought of as twee despite fan associations, insofar as so much of their stuff is either pissy noise or just straight-up rock; Small Factory yes are like the crossover point of straight-up American indie going a bit tweeish.

See, I think if you're like me and sort of like tweeness but don't really like tweeness (i.e. it is basically a non-issue for me), then it becomes possible to evaluate twee bands on their own terms, as some are great and some just suck -- but but but most people seem to have strong polarizing feelings about tweeness, leading to basically most everyone saying "ick, eww, get it away from me" and then a small contingent who will happily proclaim love for anything in the twee position. I think this leads to a problem where you can't really get any very good honest estimations of what twee is actually good and what is just annoying -- but I guess, given most people's black/white takes on it, such things aren't really necessary.

Cub is nowhere NEAR the extreme end of twee. I think that would have to be Fluff Fluff Fluff Fluff & Cuddleyness [sic], whose one released recording is "I'm Not Ashamed," on the Waaaaaaah! compilation CD: four seconds of a squeaky-toy squeaking.

Incidentally, Tullycraft's new record starts with a song called "Twee"- -the hook is actually "fuck me I'm twee." Which was the slogan on a T- shirt somebody I know wore to a couple of Yo-Yo-A-Go-Go shows.

Ack, I missed Heavenly who are twee in the best-ever possible way, in my estimation. I made the Slipknot/Cub analogy because I feel like people will praise a band for slanting their sound in the other direction, but maybe don't get the same aesthetic interest I get out of e.g. Heavenly slanting their sound interestingly into the innocent-pretty mode. (Nevermind their songwriting being fairly amazing, and Peter Momtchiloff being a straight-out fantastic guitar player.)

NB the diagram wasn't meant to imply that Cub or Slipknot actually represent the poles of that continuum: they were just handy examples.

Oh, wait, I just realized my question has been maybe interpreted wrong. (Or maybe you're all just changing the topic, in which case proceed.)

I didn't mean "how twee can a band be" -- I meant you personally, at what point for you does "aww" twee become "ick" twee.

I know that for Ned, for instance, this point comes really early to the point where he finds Rufus Wainwright "too precious."

'try a little sunshine' is indeed magnificent! if only for the fantastic spy theme 'innocent yuppie' by the groove machine and really there isn't a bad song on it until the last one which makes that one easy to skip. Heavenly certainly didn't always have twee lyrics though their penchant for the indie-novelty songs probably gives a lot of people the impression that they were sickeningly twee.

My twee tolerance levels are really very low, to the point where twee and ick are almost synonymous. Piano Magic's more 'pwecious' moments put me off, fr'instance.

A flexi once fell out of a fanzine I bought featuring a song called 'Let Loose Of My Knee'. Can't remember the artistes, but that tune defined 'twee' for me. It sounded like the title. Any ideas who it was?

Penchant for indie novelty = "C Is the Heavenly Option", dead stop? From what I know of the oh-HELL-YEAH Heavenly ouevre, that's their only song that can be rightly condemned as a "novelty".

And the Field Mice ain't that twee (and I'm not saying this with "twee = bad" in mind) - there's a chewy twee center, for sure, but stuff like "Sensitive" & "Kiss & Make Up" ain't twee. Trembling Blue Stars is more twee than the Field Mice.

BTW, Nitsuh, get yourself a copy of the Cat's Miaow's _Songs for Girls to Sing_ - it's chock full of good twee goodness that's really good. ("I Fall To Pieces" in the hands of Kerrie, their vocalist - oh, it's nice.)

My tolerance for "twee" is on a similar plane as my tolerance for "bad" - too twee is often just as good as anti-twee; middle of the road twee (which is what the Softies sound like to me) sends me for the Excedrin.

Never heard Cub before. Are they twee-er than Shonen Knife?

Maybe I was reading too much into it but I always thought there was something really dark and ironic about the couplet "Everyone's your friend in New York City/ And everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty" in "New York City."

I like twee because of the songwriting, not because it makes me go aww. Same with indie in general. I like it largely because of what it's NOT: bullshit macho posturing or fake soul, whatever, masking boring, shitty obvious music. Remember, to a non-indie fan, all indie is twee, ie, it's not IN YOUR FACE stoopid. Pavement, Yo La Tengo, Avalanches, Clouddead, Piano Magic, White Stripes - all strange and suspect and therefore twee. The most twee thing I've heard lately is the Moldy Peaches. It's so twee I couldn't take their whole look-at-how-cute-we-are pose at first, because the quality of the songs was not apparent. Not until a few ILMers convinced me to keep trying them. But the music really is good and insiduous. I still think they should be smacked and told to stop sniffing and drop the willful amateurism.

Two non-indie areas twee music could be drawing on for inspiration -

i) boybands/teenpop, which milks the same first love/first kiss end of things when it's not trying for a tougher image. (More interesting question - why DON'T boyband songwriters go for the love-is-in-the- details approach of twee indie songwriters?)

ii) candy rave and hardcore, which shares the tastes for cutesiness.

In principle I don't have a problem w/tweeness - it's about creating a songworld/soundworld by the exclusion of stuff that doesn't fit (and not all indie is twee, I'd argue), which is fine. It's just that often the 'world' that results doesn't much appeal.

I'm against Tweeness. This may come as a shock as I like bands often tagged with the twee brush (including by their fans) but I think the whole concept of tweeness is stupid.

Well, the concept of twee (as I understand it) is quite dopey & loathesome, but is that really what the music is like, or what folks project upon the music via stereotypes? Disregarding the "indie" criteria, there are a lot of bands that'd fit right in with the Helen Loves of the world. ABBA's quite twee, in that respect (albeit with the Spector Wall of Sound kicking their sonic up a few notches). Jewel's 1st album is pathetically twee. Et cetera.

Maybe there should be another scale set up (similar to Nitsuh's) between "twee" (your favorite indie-pop shamble-rific groop) & "professional" (ABBA, Backstreet Boys), with Saint Etienne smack dab in the middle.

Who can shed light on the origins of the word "twee" and explain the "concept of twee" I'm getting the gist of the conversation, but am baffled at never having heard the word before.

Ron, go to www.allmusic.com, click the styles button, enter "twee" in the search box and GO. Then you'll be no more baffled than me. I really can't add much and that way we won't have to mention C-86 and Sarah here.

Twee doesn't work for teen pop because shambling rock doesn't mix with dance. (Nice try, Kitty Craft and Call and Response.) Dance calls for a degree of precision and decisiveness, which appeals to teens. They don't need to play at shambling, they want to overcome it. Adults shamble in order to relive or extend their teenhood. Partly. It also helps express sincerity and directness, which highlights the details of twee love. But I also wish the boyband songwriters learned from the chartpop heart of Goffin-King and Smokey Robinson as well as some tweepoppers have.

I know that for Ned, for instance, this point comes really early to the point where he finds Rufus Wainwright "too precious."

That's not twee, dammit. That's just plain outright sucking. It's the difference between Cub saying at a concert "Remember, smiles are for free!" (twee idiocy) and Rufus W. thinking the lyrics of King Missile's "Sensitive Artist" were meant to be taken seriously (flat out idiocy).

I like them there Field Mice and Cat's Miaow and many other bands that could be tarred with the twee brush. In fact I'll probably be ordering some more stuff from the Microindie folks later today that could also fit in that descriptive mode (but I need more Time Stereo stuff from Windy and Carl's store first). Twee as lifestyle/buying choice guideline/overall ethic and aesthetic -- ARGH. There are no Ambrose Bierces in the world of twee, which is a great fault. The closest thing we ever got to that is Sparks, and Russell Mael sings more feyly and with better results than most. ;-)

You'd think Ned never heard / enjoyed a showtune, given the rash of hives breaking out all over his virtual self every time someone mentions RUFUS.

I can hum the score for Gigi in my sleep, for a start. That Rufus is a clodhopping snot about such fine possible sources is his fault, not mine. ;-)

Twee records on K, Blackbean, Sarah, Fantastic, Slumberland = brilliant.

Twee records on Trolley Bus, Shelflife = dud and horrible

Blackbean

Blackbean and Placenta Tape Club GOOD! Mike Landucci your FRIEND! Visit his SITE and feed his kids.

I like it largely because of what it's NOT: bullshit macho posturing or fake soul, whatever, masking boring, shitty obvious music.

This statement makes "twee" out to be the most appallingly cynical genre in history. I'd agree with it if you took it historically instead, and said that twee -- especially in America -- was largely a response to punk and hardcore: California in the late 80s, where the "underground" scene was full of broody-muscly hardcore and angsty grunge, surely made Calvin Johnson's insouciant bellowing and candy- tossing seem like the greatest thing ever to happen on the planet. As soon as that became a scene unto itself, though, there were bound to be some folks whose "twee" was as postured as someone else's "macho."

Remember, to a non-indie fan, all indie is twee, ie, it's not IN YOUR FACE stoopid.

That, on the other hand, is just completely untrue: you'd be hard pressed to find listeners who really equated the emotional posture of, say, Heavenly with the emotional posture of, say, "Slack Motherfucker."

Yes, Nitsuh, you're correct to point out that twee itself can be an affectation. Sorry, I don't see anything so appalling about that fact (although the result can sound appalling). All I know is I like a lot of music that comes without the more conventional rock posturing - for it's beauty, vulnerability and sense of fun.

And my all-indie-is-twee assertion was a generalization. I thought it was obvious. Here's another (mostly true): Do you honestly believe that, say, Aerosmith fans differentiate between indie subgenres? No, of course not, and they couldn't be bothered to adopt the term "twee". To them, it's all just weak. And in the case of Superchunk, they'd be 100% OTM.

To me 'ick' tweeness is more about the accoutrements- I hate hairslides and glitter, and thus I hate music that sounds like hairslides and glitter. I've never really thought of the Moldy Peaches as twee, probably because of their sheer dirtiness (like The Vaselines with even larger sex drives). I think that sometimes lo-fi is mistaken for twee, which is just wrong.

Also, it can be safely proven by science that Plouf! are the twee-est band in the world.

cool guitar boy could be listed as novelty, so could p.u.n.k girl and i fell in love last night, novelty songs aren't strictly labeled by content. but heavenly were brilliant, sad that amelia fletcher is stuck behind gregory webster's awful warbling. twee isn't always pretty, i remember when Albert from Sunday records started receiving death threats because he had the audacity to release less than stellar records near the end of his original run. shelflife just released the fantastic Majestic record so the early point about them being rubbish is at least partially incorrect.

i think a lot of people who have a disdain for the 'twee' have created false images in their head about the sorts of people who listen to that brand of pop music.

The Majestic record on Shelflife is nowhere near as good as the singles they released on better labels (Moonscreen, Drive-In) as Majestic 12. Shelflife are killing music.

Yeah, I know Moldy Peaches don't fit the mold, but they're more than lo-fi, too. I intentionally used them as an example of , uh, Nu-Twee! They're so affectedly cute, and the way they sing about raunchy sex and hard drugs is exactly like Bunnygrunt singing about summer vacation or fake woodgrain or whatever. And HEY they're on K!

Despite appearances to the contrary (sorry), I wasn't saying that they were just lo-fi. I do see the slightly cutesy side there, I just don't see them as arms behind the back skipping around aren't I so adorable I like Holly Hobby arse wankery.

the shoegazey majestic 12 was ok but the sleepy tunes didn't really do it for me, whereas the new album is splendid only the autocollants cover errs and the reason it does is because it sounds like old majestic 12. where else will you hear a new "rocketship" song this year? certainly not from dustin reske. also the postal blue lp is out soon and they are the brazillian reincarnation of the orchids or something close to that. the shermans last cd was fantastic as well. churchbuilder and river are trainwrecks though.

OK, not everything they've put out is terrible. But at least half of the label's output is rubbidge, though. River, *ugh*..

Apparently there *will* be some new Rocketship this year. Dustin accidentally sent an email to the Drive-In mailing list rather than Mike D-I in which he indicated he'd finished tracks for a 7" or something like that...

does any one know how i can get a twee as fuck shirt ?

You have to be punk rock and make yer own, apparently.

I wouldn't call myself a fan as such but I like a lot of old Aerosmith. I differentiate between indie subgenres. Magnetic Fields != Sonic Youth != Dismemberment Plan.

You're awesome, Sundar. Now does Steven Tyler in a hairslide make you say aww or ick?

Just another clarification: I am pro-twee.

Aww.

How about post-twee?

Shoetwee. Tweegaze. Tweetronica. Nu twee. Twee bling. Twee en espanol. Twee 'n' b.

You forgot Tweembaland, Tweep Hop, TweeDM, and Twee Tone

Tweetronica exists, surely? Múm and all that lot.

Tweegaze does too. An April March, anyone? Mira?

Buddha on the Moon!

Please see my forthcoming "The Sobs of Twee-Step Garage 2001" article.

i'm probabyl up there among the twee-est on ILM, yet I've never been into cub for some reason. Basically, twee is bad when it is twee for twee's sake. I mean, the Softie's It's Love is super twee but doesn't sound cutesy to me; the lyrics sound sincere and personal. I'm trying to think of an example of the opposite, maybe it is the aforementioned "cool guitar boy" or "p.u.n.k. girl"--clearly not songs you would write for any personal reason but because someone had come up with some indie-poppin riffs and you needed some twee lyrics to go along (on the other hand "C is the Heavenly option" is quite clever IMO). Other bad twee is like where some bubblegum went in the early 70s, songs about flowers and trees and whatnot. Of course there is a fine line here. It's basically like any genre, when the music is truly heartfelt it is good, when it is transparent it is bad. OIf course there are exceptions to this involving craft, innovation, etc.

and about this shelflife thing. Sure there are some duds on the label but they aren't "killing music." Like someone said, the majestic stuff is very good in a rocketship kind of way (both cds on shelflife), brittle stars s/t cd is a classic imo, all the shermans cds, lecoupe, skypark, the arrogants, laura watling are all worthwhile as well. I didn't mind the river 7" they released (haven't heard the full length)--it was way better than the river release on bbptc. Oh yeah, their comps have all been good too.

Actually it was the Skypark CD that started my dislike of the label. For some reason it made me horribly angry. There was something very, very half-arsed about it that got my hackles up. I haven't really recovered.

thanks Curt for guidance. I remember a short while ago somebody talking about Sarah here and investigated. Only one I had was a Heavenly CD, but alas own it no longer. anyways thanks

Are Dressy Bessy twee? They fuckin rock.

Origin of word 'twee' (you need to scroll down to bottom of page). That web page is a bit twee, actually.

electric sound of jim: i know what you are saying about that skypark record but I like it anyway. It basically sounds like a demo. Didn't they become the Fairways? I thought the Fairways CD was bood.

what i meant by bood was good.

I was gonna contend that it was gad.

Really? I liked the Fairways 7" on Matinee... *sigh* I can't keep up anymore.

Matinee is a class label all the way, except for Ego.

gad = good/bad (but not evil)

What I remember most from the Fairways CD on Minty Fresh USA was tasty guitar picking a little too forward in the mix and a little tiring to listen to.

yeah skypark became the fairways and one of the fairways is now phoebe quest. the fairways cd was on paris caramel and it is really very good, but after seeing them live i expected more or rather the record was a bit more subdued than i would have liked but i still love it. i just received in the mail what is certainly the most twee record so far this year Ant's 'A Long Way to Blow a Kiss' more evidence that he should sing all of Hefner's songs and not just be given one backing vocal per lp.

Yesterday I told someone to 'stop being so fucking twee and elusive and get to the fucking point.' which sums up everything nicely, I think.

keith, what is that ant record? sounds good. The sound on the Fariways CD is a little off, something about the recording or mixing i think, but it is a good disc. Phoebe quest ain't bad either, it's on shelflife... it's a an ep/mini-lp like the skypark disc. I guess i like short pop records.

g

nm, i found the website...

this is gonna be a FUN one when it hits google.

i beg to differ. the fairways album sounds damn good to me. some people might complaing that the guitars are too loud, but i think it wasn't a mixing problem, but a conscious choice.

I'm sorry, Jess, you might have to rethink your claim.

well, that was disappointing. where's the twee jihad i was promised?

gently cuddle the citadel!!