"What About Us?" Is Better Than "Try Again"

I said this about "Slave 4 U" too but "Try Again" sounds not like future-pop but someone's idea of future-pop. "What About Us?" sounds like the real thing.

In theory, I might agree.

Try Again is about how to get Aaliyah in bed, duh.

personally i think the best song is 'Are You That Somebody'...

"Try Again" never did much for me, besides the 303 loop (which is so cliche. But what can I say?). I've only heard "What About Us?" once. I'm downloading it now.

It is very possible that it is very better.

Try Again still does lots for me.

I agree about the production being more fully-realized, but I can't get over Brandy.... her bit seems repetitious and nagging. Maybe this fits in with the cold machine aspect, but in that case, I think it'd be nicer if her voice gradually evolved into a vocoder throughout the track (the last minute vocal-manipulations Jerkins throws in only hints at this).

As for "Try Again", it is a little thin beyond the 303 novelty, but it's also the more dexterous song. Aaliyah's breathiness will always do more for me than Brandy's chug.

i'm a timmy jocker to the end, but I've never really felt Try Again. by far the weakest of the baby girl collabos.

Do people honestly think "Try Again" did well (apart from critically) because of the 303? Audiences aren't that self- conscious. It's all in Aaliyah's performance and that fabutastic video clip.

I've warmed to "What About Us" though, deciding to give Brandy the benefit of the doubt and assume that her vocals are deliberately and not accidentally dead sounding. There's some good stuff on the album, too. Two other tracks work the same machine sound; I wish there were more though, because there's not much variation and I'd like to here Rodney Jerkins work that sound in a couple of different ways. Then there's the ballad-on- speed "All In Me" which is a bit like an even more unbalanced version of Janet Jackson's "Empty" complete with a weird but intriguing 2-step interlude.

Overall though the album's a bit weak - far too many stock- standard ballads, and Brandy's new raspy voice only works as it's intended to occasionally. She's really lost the presence she had when she first came out - her ultra-vapid gaze on the cover says it all really - and in terms of actual connection the only track that does it for me is the final one "WOW", the token-good-ballad where Brandy tries to convince her ex that she much prefers her new boyfriend, over a falsely happy sparkly Tinkerbell arrangement.

And another thing...

When "Try Again" came out, what I think stunned was its absolute coldness, its utterly total reserve, rather than anything specific sonically. As far as I can recall, it was only after people (like myself, admittedly) started placing the noises in context (eg. an increasing reliance on 303 in She'kspere and Rockwilder's productions) that they started banging on and on about the 303 line. Once that started, it was only a matter of time before the track sounded like a novelty, but listening to it at the end of the < i>Aaliyah album I still reckon there's a sense of purpose to the entire thing which is profoundly affecting.

Tim, I do think the 303 was a big part of "Try Again"'s success. Just because people didn't know it was called a 303 doesn't mean they didn't recognize a hook when they heard one!

Yeah, but exactly, it was received as a hook (I love how absurdly tuneful that acid line actually *is*, much more than the electronic thump in "What About Us") rather than as a 303 line. The majority of people who noticed it were presumably thinking "gee that sounds memorable/great/new" rather than "gee that sounds like acid house meets R&B". A required element for "Try Again" to be a novelty, I'd imagine, is that both sides recognise what is being referenced, and that the tune primarily works because of the shock of recognition.

To use a 2-step example: where The Streets' "Let's Push Things Forward" is a great track whether or not you know ska, I think Middlerow's "Right Proper Charlie" only works as if the listener * knows* it's an amalgam of 2-step, ska and musichall. The fact that "Let's Push Things Forward" transcends novelty does not disallow the ska elements from being among its best qualities. See also: the difference between bootlegs that only work as interesting or funny juxtapositions and bootlegs that work as great tracks in and of themselves.

I'm prepared to admit that a lot of people probably did like "Try Again" due to the acid house connection; if it had only been a cult thing then it could be easily dismissed as a novelty. Again though I think the key is that you can't separate the acid line from the surrounding context of the song. Surely the impressive feat is not taking a 303 to the top of the charts but taking a song that cold to no. 1 - I can't think of anything like it doing so well prior ("She's A Bitch" flopped if I recall) but it definitely opened the door for stuff like 112's "Dance With Me" and Brandy's "What About Us".

What "Try Again" really did that was impressive was not including a 303 line, but stretching the concept of the R&B song to the point where it *could* include a 303 line as the main hook (admittedly there it was only standing on the shoulders of such giants as "No Scrubs" and "Bills Bills Bills"). As such it could still be a one-trick-pony, but I don't think I'd dismiss it as a novelty track even if I disliked it.

Argument for your team: wasn't it Tom's thesis that novelties are often the inadvertant springboard for new chart trends? Maybe "Try Again" had to be a novelty in order to burst open the doors so that subsequent efforts could be more subtle or creative.

Clarity!

Surely people don't have to "recognize what's being referenced" -- if it was familiar to everybody already then it wouldn't be a novelty!

Anyway it's interesting that you bring up "No Scrubs" because I think that song's the real groundbreaker for coldness in R&B -- it's extremely cold, not just in the sound of those gorgeous-but- chilly strings, but also emotionally frigid, maybe the cruellest single of the '90s. It's rage and passion and hurt cooling into a lump of hard ice. Much colder than "Try Again" to these ears.

And although it doesn't have any techno-gimmicks, that's the song that made this whole class of R&B possible. I hear a lot more "No Scrubs" than "Try Again" in "What About Us?"

Or put another way, "No Scrubs" is the song that established the emotional territory that made putting a 303 in a song possible, "Try Again" just happened to be a song that actually went out and did it. And as a song, the latter's a little flimsy.

i just heard that brandy track. well, to me, that brandy track sounds like a bit of a dirge. 'try again' is one song that compels me to dance as soon as i hear it. i cant really imagine dancing to 'what about us', not with any enjoyment. and thats all i care about. so, i vote for 'try again'. it is THE funkiest r'n'b tune ever.....of all the 10 that i have heard, at any rate. in fact here's a challenge: suggest some r'n'b tunes that i couyld find on the net to listen to, that you think is better to dance to than 'try again'. i doubt it can be done....

i think 'chug' is a pretty good word to describe 'what about us'. i dont find that a good thing.

Ian, I think you and I are using different contextual definitions of novelty here.

Actually, wait:

"It's rage and passion and hurt cooling into a lump of hard ice."

Wow, you actually hear all of that in "No Scrubs"?!?

And another thing...

In terms of steely emotional terrain, I always thought a lot of En Vogue's work circa Funky Divas was eerily prescient, but obviously the sonics had to catch up. I think there was always the potential for R&B to emotionally cold due to the focus on relationships + materialism + fast thrills that has been in vogue since new jack swing. The bigger swing for me is the sound of the records, which has transformed dramatically from, say, "Creep", one of the warmest pop records I can think of.

"What About Us", to me, sounds like just a very cool sounding squelch which has another incredibly dull and presence-less vocal from a very uncharismatic vocalist on top of it. Seems like Brandy's only claim to being R&B/hip-hop/whatever is that she happens to be black - her voice just has no impact at ALL to me. And the vocals deliberately work against the music - not only chugging, but JARRING at the ears. That's supposed to be pleasurable to listen to?

"Try Again", on the other hand, is slinky goodness. Note how Aaliyah's singing (high and sweet) doesn't exactly match the music (very low and futuristic), but it works with the general grain of it, whereas the contrast in Brandy's thing is horrible.

(And I agree with Tim that this genre starts with En Vogue - who have never been given the credit they deserve. TLC? Hardly)

ian you bastard you didn't properly credit that title quote to ME.

This thread could use an injection of energy. What say we get the jay-z/nas battle thread people over here?

Ethan, if you like "What About Us" you might as well like Company Flow.

Like I said -- Try Again is about Aaliyah teaching you to become a desiring machine to get HER.

"What About Us?" is far and away the best single Brandy has ever released. It's demented, deranged, harsh and absolutely glorious. You could make one of the best compilations in the world by putting this together with "I'm A Slave 4 U", "We Need A Resolution", "Oops (Oh My)", "Hot Boys", "Hit Em Up Style", "What It Feels Like For A Girl" remix, "I'm Like A Bird" remix, and "Hey Baby".

I love "What About Us?" and I love Company Flow: ergo I *am* Ethan

Dan's got himself one great comp idea there, I have to say. Too bad I think half the songs should have drowned at birth (or more charitably, instrumental mixes ;-)).

That remix of "What It Feels Like For A Girl" practically is an instrumental, Ned. And don't hate on the Nelly remix until you hear it; it's all dark and stormy and shit.

I forgot, we need to add "Caught Out There" to this, too. Maybe also a Janet song, but I can't think of one that would go with the vibe... "Trust To Try"?

IanAtBrown: i love what about us by brandy
ethANP2 3: i know it's so not a gimmick track
ethANP2 3: fuck everybody else
ethANP2 3: like there's some law that because you were the third critic to like try again now you cant like bleepy bloop r&b again or you'll be repeating yourself
ethANP2 3: anyway what about us is better than try again
IanAtBrown: yes it is
ethANP2 3: but not better than are you that somebody sorry
ReverieFilm: I think it's very clunky and clumsy
ethANP2 3: you're thinking of ok computer

i love you ian.

So what's your definition of "novelty" Tim? And I do hear all that in "No Scrubs" -- one of the things that makes that song so great for me is that there's obviously so much painful history leading up to it, it's not just cruelty for the sake of cruelty. It's got to hurt when a guy's hanging out of the side of his best friend's ride hollering obnoxious things at you, and all the good-for-nothing men that (it seems to me) she's suffered through relationships with have to have taken their toll, but the response to these men isn't played for rage, just chilly dignity. Like Abba.

"No Scrubs" seems just silly and fun, actually. Like you go after some girl, and she's like, "no way, scrub" and you both laugh.

"Bugaboo" on the other hand...

Yeah, that's what I thought at first, too, Sterling, but then I thought about it more and it seems like a really depressing song now!

the same thing happened to me with 'my name is'.

Ian: dignified is I think the right word, but in a sweet way.

Ian, I thought you meant "novelty track" - eg. Mike Flowers Pops Orchestra.

For me "No Scrubs" is like the female Jay-Z; the girls are so above these guys that getting worked up over it would be foolish. If anything they're doing the scrubs a favour, letting them know that they're just wasting their time. And cruelty for cruelty's sake is okay because these are, you know, scrubs we're dealing with here.

But I actually like your interpretation more.