Why doesn't the RIAA shut down second-hand record shops?

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If I only ever buy used cds from now am I committing a crime because the artist and recording industry will receive no royalties from my purchases?

whatever (boglogger), Friday, 17 February 2006 09:34 (nineteen years ago)

In this case, I think they've got a point. Second-hand record purchases should contain some royalty taxes. (not the full amount, maybe some system where the amount drops off the further away from the publishing date)

StanM (StanM), Friday, 17 February 2006 09:57 (nineteen years ago)

I only take records to the secondhand shop when they suck. In which case, the artist doesn't deserve two lots of royalties. In fact, if someone makes a truly sucky record that gets sold off a billion times, presumably they'd make a ton more money if royalties had to be paid than they would have if the disc was worth keeping in the first place. Maybe.

NickB (NickB), Friday, 17 February 2006 10:13 (nineteen years ago)

first-sale doctrine

fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Friday, 17 February 2006 10:29 (nineteen years ago)

I like buying second hand cos there's too much plastic out there already.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Friday, 17 February 2006 10:32 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I know about that first-sale thing, and I've always found it strange. What Nick says about bad records making more money that way, I'm not sure that would happen (a couple of copies would make more money than the average, but there would be a lot less new copies sold in the first place).

What about limited edition/out of print stuff? Those artists don't get a penny of the astronomical amounts of profit some items are making on the second-hand market.

StanM (StanM), Friday, 17 February 2006 10:55 (nineteen years ago)

That's kind of the artist/record company's own fault for not reissuing it/making it ltd edition though.

Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Friday, 17 February 2006 11:04 (nineteen years ago)

the first-sale doctrine is no stranger than copyright itself, surely?

fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Friday, 17 February 2006 11:18 (nineteen years ago)

Well, yeah, you're right, but what are the alternatives?

StanM (StanM), Friday, 17 February 2006 12:15 (nineteen years ago)

Good lord, what's next? Banning/taxing garage sales?

The publishing industry has survived despite the millions of used bookstores out there. The furniture industry has survived despite the millions of thift stores.

What makes the recording industry so special, exactly?

Kent Burt (lingereffect), Friday, 17 February 2006 13:36 (nineteen years ago)

THe RIAA has tried this before. They've even threatened places that play music instore for not having proper public performance rights.
But the courts have consistently held up the first sale doctrine. Which is why you see everything "licensed" now, not sold. (Though George Hotelling did establish a first-sale precedent on iTunes).

js (honestengine), Friday, 17 February 2006 14:06 (nineteen years ago)

what about people who borrow records from libraries? fucking freeloaders.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 17 February 2006 14:19 (nineteen years ago)


Many industries, like publishing, have a philsophy of, "what's good for the product in general is good for us, what raises interest in the product or activity (such as reading) in general is good for everyone in it." The music industry doesn't seem to understand this.

patrick bateman (mickeygraft), Friday, 17 February 2006 14:33 (nineteen years ago)

That's well put, Patrick B.

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 17 February 2006 14:37 (nineteen years ago)

You have to pay the library.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 17 February 2006 14:51 (nineteen years ago)

Not if you return them on time you don't. Not here anyway.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 17 February 2006 14:52 (nineteen years ago)

You do here.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 17 February 2006 15:00 (nineteen years ago)

"Many industries, like publishing, have a philsophy of, "what's good for the product in general is good for us, what raises interest in the product or activity (such as reading) in general is good for everyone in it."

If that was true of publishing, why is the entire industry so pissy about Google book search, which if it does anything, raises the profile of individual books to completely unprecedented levels? Sorry to say it, but the book industry is quickly going the same way as the record companies.

Anyway, I've heard publishing agents gripe about libraries - "a library book borrowed four times = three lost sales", etc.

Tim Rutherford-Johnson (Rambler), Friday, 17 February 2006 15:15 (nineteen years ago)

You have to pay the library? Seriously? That's crazy!

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 17 February 2006 15:21 (nineteen years ago)

Why doesn't the RIAA shut down Ebay?

Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Friday, 17 February 2006 18:10 (nineteen years ago)

I only take records to the secondhand shop when they suck.

Of course. But on the other hand, I only buy records from the secondhand shop when they're good.

Paul in Santa Cruz (Paul in Santa Cruz), Friday, 17 February 2006 19:13 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, you're taxes pay for the library so in a sense we all have to.

dan. (dan.), Friday, 17 February 2006 19:22 (nineteen years ago)

your obviously

dan. (dan.), Friday, 17 February 2006 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

"a library book borrowed four times = three lost sales", etc.

Right, because if not for libraries, people would be buying up books like hotcakes or some other fast-selling thing.

I mean, people just love buying books.

polyphonic (polyphonic), Friday, 17 February 2006 19:32 (nineteen years ago)

Of course. But on the other hand, I only buy records from the secondhand shop when they're good.

the fact? so many people burn-and-then-sell/return good music is a boon for used cd buyers like myself, but I wonder why they even bother when there's p2p? Are there that many people who're snobbish about "lossy files" or something?

tremendoid (tremendoid), Saturday, 18 February 2006 01:45 (nineteen years ago)

Not that I'm defending the practice, but I would imagine that burn-and-return kids find p2p incredibly tedious with too much waiting and the inevitable difficulty of tracking down that one last track. Also, if you don't have broadband yet...

Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Saturday, 18 February 2006 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

There's obviously a pretty big difference between one person buying one used copy of a CD that someone else bought once and 10,000 people getting an album for free thanks to one person who paid for it or perhaps even got it free and "leaked" it.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 18 February 2006 18:03 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, you're taxes pay for the library so in a sense we all have to.

of course, but it seems like he was implying a per-use payment for borrowing. i'd never heard of that.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Saturday, 18 February 2006 18:45 (nineteen years ago)

some people in this world need to just look past just the money, but that will never happen, wishful thinking

J. Lamphere (WatchMeJumpStart), Saturday, 18 February 2006 19:08 (nineteen years ago)

Hahaha, who? The musicians or the consumers?

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 18 February 2006 19:13 (nineteen years ago)

"You need to learn to look past the money and give me stuff for free."

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Saturday, 18 February 2006 19:13 (nineteen years ago)

THe RIAA has tried this before. They've even threatened places that play music instore for not having proper public performance rights.
But the courts have consistently held up the first sale doctrine. Which is why you see everything "licensed" now, not sold. (Though George Hotelling did establish a first-sale precedent on iTunes).
-- js (roc...), February 17th, 2006 2:06 PM. (later)

Many industries, like publishing, have a philsophy of, "what's good for the product in general is good for us, what raises interest in the product or activity (such as reading) in general is good for everyone in it." The music industry doesn't seem to understand this.

-- patrick bateman (p...), February 17th, 2006 2:33 PM. (later)
OTM. Both of them.

Also, the RIAA suffers more harm from mass-scale counterfeiting from full-sized pressing plants in China/Taiwan/Korea than ALL of the file-trading and hometaping that goes on in the US. But the RIAA strikes out at the small-fry close at hand because its more convenient, I suppose.
The irony is that what the small fry -- who paid for a legit CD and merely copied it onto his iPod/Zen/GoGear -- is still within his constitutionally protected statutory rights to make his copy. Fair Use and First Purchase and all. The illegal pressing plants in China aren't within 1000 light years of legality. So why do they get the get out of jail free card?

Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Sunday, 19 February 2006 07:09 (nineteen years ago)

I only take records to the secondhand shop when they suck

I have occasionally done when there are undeniably better remasters available.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 19 February 2006 09:31 (nineteen years ago)

Not if you return them on time you don't. Not here anyway.

ever hear of something called TAXES?

Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 19 February 2006 10:37 (nineteen years ago)

The illegal pressing plants in China aren't within 1000 light years of legality. So why do they get the get out of jail free card?

China is the emerging market to watch in the next couple of decades. More than a billion of potential customers and cheap laborers, no country wants them as their enemy. The rest (our own jobs, artists, copyrights) don't mean shit compared to that. Heck, our (Belgian) royalty and government go there on trade missions every couple of months, what do they care if their own citizens lose our jobs? Trillions of €€€$$$£££ to be made if we can keep on China's good side!

Doesn't sound like it has anything to do with music, I know, but that's the bigger picture you need for the explanation. (Why did Google agree to censorship? Exactly the same reason.)

StanM (StanM), Sunday, 19 February 2006 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

for christ's sake, eisbar i just explained what i meant a few posts up.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Sunday, 19 February 2006 21:50 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know about the millions of yen/yuan/euros that are do to be passed around...it just cheeses me off that the RIAA goes through absurd trouble to bust 5,000 people doing something that is completely legal (and which costs them, at most, a few million) but turns a blind eye to 5,000,000 people doing something blatantly illegal (that costs them, provably, several billion.)
Grrr.
Is gaining the a billion yuan over there worth losing a billion dollars over here?

Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 20 February 2006 00:57 (nineteen years ago)

Also...getting back to the original posters question: As crazy and stupid as the RIAA is, I don't think they could get the right kind of legislation rammed through that would give them the legal power to shut down second hand shops. (Though I could imagine them crafting some perversion of 'Imminent Domain' to try this.)

Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 20 February 2006 01:01 (nineteen years ago)

Is gaining the a billion yuan over there worth losing a billion dollars over here?

Oh yes. RIAA probably wants to sue the hell out of them, but the bigger picture is:

The chance for a whole country to buy/sell oil and gas and cars and wood and metal and food and drink and clothing and fruit and vegetables and meat and grain and labour and kidneys and animals and plastic and medicine and herbs

vs.

counterfeit albums and other trademarked stuff.

StanM (StanM), Monday, 20 February 2006 01:14 (nineteen years ago)

In this case, I think they've got a point. Second-hand record purchases should contain some royalty taxes. (not the full amount, maybe some system where the amount drops off the further away from the publishing date)
-- StanM (Stan10...), February 17th, 2006. (StanM)

I only take records to the secondhand shop when they suck. In which case, the artist doesn't deserve two lots of royalties. ...

-- NickB (nic...), February 17th, 2006. (NickB)

If the RIAA tried to demand royalties for secondhand-store sales, someone would surely argue that the artist should have to give back some royalties when you sell his CD to a secondhand store. And I'm sure the RIAA wouldn't want to get into that, if for no other reason than the bookkeeping involved.

Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Monday, 20 February 2006 15:41 (nineteen years ago)

and Leo Sayer would lose a fortune!

mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 20 February 2006 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

Oh yes. RIAA probably wants to sue the hell out of them, but the bigger picture is:

The chance for a whole country to buy/sell oil and gas and cars and wood and metal and food and drink and clothing and fruit and vegetables and meat and grain and labour and kidneys and animals and plastic and medicine and herbs

vs.

counterfeit albums and other trademarked stuff.

Keep in mind, also, that a 100 years ago, there was rampant piracy in the United States as a matter of course. Unless a book was first published in the US, there was no protection for books by foreign writers (ie, the British). Dickens never made a cent off the books he sold here, nor did the Brontes or anyone else. The idea that copyrights in one country are protected in another is relatively new. I don't remember when the first world agreements started popping up, but I'm pretty sure it's less than 70 years ago.

So yeah, let China pirate all they want now; in sixty years, it'll be a mature market with a desire for Hollywood films and Japanese noise rock or whatever the hell is popular then.

brilliant young and angsty (thatguy), Monday, 20 February 2006 16:35 (nineteen years ago)


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