Virtuosic musicians who manage to avoid being *wanky* (or who are enjoyable enough to listen to that you forgive their wankiness)

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Buddy Rich
Chris Squire
Tony Williams
John McLaughlin (sometimes)
John Coltrane

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Monday, 20 February 2006 02:13 (nineteen years ago)

He takes a lot of shit around here, but Buckethead. Also Richard Thompson. Def. Charlie Parker.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 20 February 2006 02:39 (nineteen years ago)

charlie parker is way wanky!!

― geoff (gcannon), Monday, 20 February 2006 02:44 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, but I enjoy his music. And certainly Buckethead is wankier .

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 20 February 2006 03:07 (nineteen years ago)

I guess bebop is almost a wanky just by definition, but I don't find Parker's playing wanky because it always lays over the changes so perfectly.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Monday, 20 February 2006 03:09 (nineteen years ago)

BTW I've been watching all these drum videos on youtube, and I realized that one of the wankiest things a musician can do is play something so fast and complicated that it can't be understood by the human ear -- it's like these guys thing they're being watched by olympic judges who are going to give them points for difficulty.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Monday, 20 February 2006 03:11 (nineteen years ago)

lindsey buckingham

― electric sound of jim (and why not) (electricsound), Monday, 20 February 2006 03:26 (nineteen years ago)

Percy Jones x 100000

― Patrick South (Patrick South), Monday, 20 February 2006 03:28 (nineteen years ago)

Prince.

― regular roundups (Dave M), Monday, 20 February 2006 03:31 (nineteen years ago)

Jake Shimabukuro!

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Monday, 20 February 2006 03:47 (nineteen years ago)

Ween

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, 20 February 2006 03:48 (nineteen years ago)

Richard Bishop
Eyvind Kang
Diamanda Galas

― sleeve, away, Monday, 20 February 2006 04:26 (nineteen years ago)

beth sorrentino (easily as good a pianist as ben folds but she hardly ever took solos on those suddenly, tammy albums)

― i always wondered where my mandibula was! (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 20 February 2006 04:36 (nineteen years ago)

Charlie Parker is not at all wanky.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 20 February 2006 04:56 (nineteen years ago)

more intricate =/ wanky

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 20 February 2006 04:56 (nineteen years ago)

Nile Rodgers

― whenuweremine (whenuweremine), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:04 (nineteen years ago)

stewart copeland
bill frisell
adrian belew
charles mingus

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:05 (nineteen years ago)

monk!

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:05 (nineteen years ago)

Brian May.

I think the reason he's not wanky (and hopefully I'm approaching a definition of wankiness here) is that any technical virtuosity is always in the service of melody, it's never fast/clever/complicated for its own sake. When that stops being true is, I think, where 'wanky' starts: when the message behind the fancy playing is "I am good at fancy playing".

― JimD (JimD), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:08 (nineteen years ago)

professor longhair
jerry garcia
steve gadd
kenny aronoff

...there are actually a lot of people who fit this description

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:08 (nineteen years ago)

When that stops being true is, I think, where 'wanky' starts: when the message behind the fancy playing is "I am good at fancy playing".

correct -- not that it can never be impressive, but it should always serve the material.

― i always wondered where my mandibula was! (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:08 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, I'm having Nina Simone too. Primarily as a pianist, but also as a singer I guess.

― JimD (JimD), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:09 (nineteen years ago)

john entwistle

― i always wondered where my mandibula was! (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:09 (nineteen years ago)

i was thinking nina too. and...elvin jones!!!

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:11 (nineteen years ago)

and...clyde stubblefield!!!

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:13 (nineteen years ago)

What's the name of the bassist in Muse? He might deserve to be in here.

Also, John Andrews, the drummer from Kingmaker!

Squarepusher too, sometimes. But sometimes not.

― JimD (JimD), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:15 (nineteen years ago)

john andrews was really good. has he done anything since kingmaker?

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:16 (nineteen years ago)

Not that I know of. He should! Miles the bassist was pretty great too.

I've changed my mind about the guy from muse, he's not actually good enough to be classed as virtuosic.

― JimD (JimD), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:17 (nineteen years ago)

This is great and all, but really you just have to learn to love the wank, don't you? Because really "viruosic musicians who i like" is the only common thread through all these answers. John McLaughlin? He was a superb wanker. Why can't you just credit him for something he did well instead of placing a value judgment on it?

― SONNY, Monday, 20 February 2006 05:21 (nineteen years ago)

(Just looked up John Andrews, apparently he was in Badness (Madness tribute band) for a while! But yeah, don't know after that. I'm going to track him down!)

― JimD (JimD), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:23 (nineteen years ago)

a tribute band? oh dear. "really scrape the sky" is one of my favorite rock'n'roll drum songs of the last couple decades.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 20 February 2006 05:32 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not sure why this is, but I have a soft spot for Steve Vai, who many will consider utterly wanky. Maybe I give him a hall pass because of his tenure with Frank Zappa. Whatever the case, I think he's the greatest electric guitar player that's ever touched the instrument. Even when he plays a zillion notes in one second.

― Mr _Deeds (Mr_Deeds), Monday, 20 February 2006 06:08 (nineteen years ago)

the dudes from slayer and meshuggah

― latebloomer: yes...that's a human ear, all right (latebloomer), Monday, 20 February 2006 06:40 (nineteen years ago)

Manuel Goetsching
Mr Popol Vuh
Kraftwerk

― centralheating, Monday, 20 February 2006 09:33 (nineteen years ago)

Bob Drake
Christian Vander
Bill Bruford
Jim Black
Joey Baron
Jaki Liebezeit!

― Dominique (dleone), Monday, 20 February 2006 16:15 (nineteen years ago)

Only problem with that definition is that 'complicated for its own sake' is a subjective impression imposed upon by the listener/viewer.

― Joe (Joe), Monday, 20 February 2006 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

Chris Squire

Not in the case of his penchant for protracted bass solos. Especially in a live setting ("The Fish"/"Whitefish", "Ritual" middle section, "Amazing Grace"), these are the epitome of rock wankery, IMO (and I say that as a huge Yes fan).

― Joe (Joe), Monday, 20 February 2006 16:36 (nineteen years ago)

I would never call Clyde virtuosic.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 20 February 2006 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

George Duke
Rahsaan Roland Kirk
FRANK ZAPPA

― nklshs, Monday, 20 February 2006 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

Only problem with that definition is that 'complicated for its own sake' is a subjective impression imposed upon by the listener/viewer.

uh, this whole thread is subjective innit?

― i always wondered where my mandibula was! (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 20 February 2006 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

Ian Crause and Vini Reilly, who absolutely owns this thread.

― owen moorhead (i heart daniel miller), Monday, 20 February 2006 16:46 (nineteen years ago)

The Shaggs

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Monday, 20 February 2006 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

Lou Reed

― senseiDancer (sexyDancer), Monday, 20 February 2006 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

Second vote for Nile Rodgers.

Also: Bernard Edwards, Tony Thompson.

― Ant, Monday, 20 February 2006 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

I guess bebop is almost a wanky just by definition

hahaha. charlie parker aka the yngwie malmstein of the alto sax.

get a new dictionary.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 20 February 2006 19:28 (nineteen years ago)

buddy miles.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 20 February 2006 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

Darkthrone

― Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 20 February 2006 20:52 (nineteen years ago)

Nels Cline

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Monday, 20 February 2006 21:20 (nineteen years ago)

The perfect example of this is Steve Hackett. An incredible guitarist, playing some really complex stuff. And yet, always very melodic, following pre-written notes, never tempted by the kind of wild improvisation that I consider "instrument wanking".

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 20 February 2006 21:29 (nineteen years ago)

nobody's gonna say hendrix?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 20 February 2006 21:53 (nineteen years ago)

Eddie Hazel.

― Michael A Neuman (Ferg), Monday, 20 February 2006 22:06 (nineteen years ago)

John Paul Jones.

― phil d. (Phil D.), Monday, 20 February 2006 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

i love hendrix but he invented whole new universes of guitar wankery.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 20 February 2006 22:14 (nineteen years ago)

Nile Rodgers, sure. As much as I love it, Bernard's "in the pocket" style is snazzy and Tony probably wasn't ..'virtuosic'
Tony Williams, Steve Copeland also seconded, Samm Bennett and a few more drummers come to mind. Maybe percussion is the least unbearable wankery, or retains the most enjoyability, whichever.

― blunt (blunt), Monday, 20 February 2006 22:28 (nineteen years ago)

Does J.Mascis count?

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 00:23 (nineteen years ago)

Nick Drake

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 01:03 (nineteen years ago)

Toumani Diabate

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 01:37 (nineteen years ago)

on further through, I think Frisell has to own this thread

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 01:41 (nineteen years ago)

uh, further thought

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 01:42 (nineteen years ago)

Besides Steve Hackett, I would also like to put in a word for the late Jeff Porcaro here. No "wanking" in his drumming for Steely Dan and Toto, but he always improved the quality of the recording.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 02:07 (nineteen years ago)

You're right about Hackett. Phil Collins too though.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 02:47 (nineteen years ago)

I agree with the second sentence but the rest kind of gets at one of my basic problems with this thread. I think some people just use "wank" to refer to any sort of virtuosic instrumental soloing. McLaughlin definitely does a lot of this but it's all meticulously constructed and integrated into tight compositions. The only sense in which "wanky" means anything to me as a criticism is when a musician seems to be just 'moving his or her fingers', concerned with just playing in a demonstrative way, without any real regard for the overall shape of the music or the other players, e.g. 'filling space' with obvious repeated scale or arpeggio patterns. I do think something like the guitar solo of "Freebird" gets wanky in this way. But if you "learn to love the wank" then surely you're hearing some kind of musical value in it - so it ceases to be wank, right?

But, and this is my other big problem, I don't think this sense of "wank" really has any connection to virtuosity, necessarily. I don't see why virtuosi would be more prone to this. The way the question is phrased, it seems to suggest that wankiness is an almost inevitable result of virtuosity that only some can manage to avoid. But, if anything, I would think that virtuosity would seem to make one less wanky, since you'd have a wider range and knowledge of things to play that are less obvious. It's surely more self-indulgent to make people listen to you if you can't really play than if you can, right? In this way, though I like them all a lot, Lou Reed's or James Williamson's guitar playing strikes me as somewhat more wanky than Alex Lifeson's or John McLaughlin's or Pat Metheny's. "Heartbreaker" sounds wankier to me than "Achilles' Last Stand" or "Song Remains the Same".

― Sundar (sundar), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 03:01 (nineteen years ago)

DJ QBert!

― Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 03:06 (nineteen years ago)

I agree w/sundar, not sure why a "virtuoso" glutton would be any less tolerable than shit player glutton.

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 03:18 (nineteen years ago)

Kraftwerk
Lou Reed

Ha ha. Right on!

― Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 10:21 (nineteen years ago)

Steve Howe
Rick Wakeman
Vangelis

― Jay Vee (Manon_70), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 13:46 (nineteen years ago)

Johnny Marr: Phenomenal player, little or no wank.

Maurice Deebank: His playing for Felt makes my spirits soar. Possibly indulged the wank a bit on his solo lp though...

― Bill A (Bill A), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 13:52 (nineteen years ago)

Michael Karoli? actually, most of Can.

Keith Levine - Post Punk Jimi Hendrix?

― young sensation gruppe (young sensation gruppe), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think anyone in Can was a "virtuoso" - apart from Jaki Liebezeit.

― Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 16:53 (nineteen years ago)

These threads make me want go all Alex In NYC on people.

― Dan (BLOOD! BOILING!) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 16:56 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, but why?

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

Because everyone here is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO "punk" that the word "virtuoso" automatically implies the words "self-indulgent" and "wanky"; basically it's an entire mindset that sabotages music education and that pisses me off.

― Dan (Wilfull Ignorance Is Not Cool) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 17:01 (nineteen years ago)

karoli's stuff on mother sky is on the virtuoso/wanky border surely?

and my point about levine was that he made no secret of his ability to play.

― young sensation gruppe (young sensation gruppe), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 17:07 (nineteen years ago)

and i suspect it's levene, also.

― young sensation gruppe (young sensation gruppe), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

I don't find Karoli's stuff to be all that technically virtuosic (if that's a word)

― Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

Dan, I've picked Brian May and Phil Collins, I'm not SOOOOOOOOO punk.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

Hahahaha I should admit I am mostly reacting to the thread title as opposed to the actual thread.

― Dan (This Book Has A Horrible Cover) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 17:18 (nineteen years ago)

Karoly definitely not virtuosic, defnitely wanky at times, at times the weak link in Can's minimalist system.

To Tony Williams I'd add Ed Blackwell. I find Frisell to be frequently wanky, Nels Cline too, but none of them hold a candle to Henry Kaiser, or as he is not so affectionately called in some quarters, Hank the Wank.

― eek, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 17:43 (nineteen years ago)

My problem with this topic is that it is even more subjective than most of the other stuff we ~~argue in circles about~~ discuss here, and oftentimes I see somebody I usually think of as Keeper Of The Pop, Defender Of All That Is Good In Music coming out to champion somebody I think of as an uberwanker.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

Typically I agree with you on stuff like this, but there's this whole CULTURE of wanky Guitar Center metal/prog dudes who don't know how to turn off the shred-faucet and play with some elegance.

― i always wondered where my mandibula was! (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

it's making me NUTZ when people equate jazz w/that Steve Vai nonesense. and I'll admit there's wanky jazz players galore but uhm it seems like some blanket dismissals/judging by genre goin on here.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:13 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, that's got me tied up in KNOTZ too. Jazz guys can get away with phoning it in without their audience noticing or minding, but it seems like a much lesser offence.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:15 (nineteen years ago)

i perhaps overreacted on the karoli thing but i have trouble a lot of prog wank and he's right at my threshold.

did anyone mention fripp?

― young sensation gruppe (young sensation gruppe), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:53 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, fripp is a pretty good example. actually, his recent compositions (esp on construkction of light) are a lot wankier than his solos

― Dominique (dleone), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 21:19 (nineteen years ago)

i was thinking about starting a thread related to this subject: where is the line between dismissing a band as, say "noodling" as in the jam band thing or wanking as termed here and seriously emmotionally moving jamming?

― charlie muardijb, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 22:52 (nineteen years ago)

i don't think there's anything as solid as a line between those things. more like a gauzy and porous scrim.

like, i said jerry garcia up above, because -- while he was certainly capable of phoning it in -- his playing as a rule seems to me playful and intelligent and conversational, he's communicating something with it other than his ability to wander around the fretboard for 17 minutes without tripping over his fingers. otoh, i find a lot of jam-heavy dudes -- like trey anastasio, for example -- not nearly as interesting. if trey has something to say, i don't really hear it in his playing. he comes across as proficient but kinda blank (and NB i have not made a comprehensive study of the works of trey anastasio, i'm just going on the impressions of what i've heard). so, to me, there's a big difference between jerry and trey, and while wanky vs. unwanky is a simplistic way of putting it, it's not an unfair one.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 22:59 (nineteen years ago)

im surprised no one has mentioned zornin this thread... his stuff has always seemed like a berklee kid's wet dream, but the last few times ive seen him hes been melodically/harmonicallywhataver engaging and interesting... ditto for dave douglas, as well....

― capnkickass (gloriagaynor), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 23:08 (nineteen years ago)

im surprised no one has mentioned zorn in this thread... his stuff has always seemed like a berklee kid's wet dream, but the last few times ive seen him hes been melodically/harmonicallywhataver engaging and interesting... ditto for dave douglas, as well....

― capnkickass (gloriagaynor), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 23:08 (nineteen years ago)

I know this is to do w/gtr solos but we could expand this a bit. I found the link below just now.

Diamanda on virtuosity - I guess its all abt the listener training his/her own ear to perceive those differences. What i'm taking from it: virtuosity can always go to interesting places in the performer's mind ("sonic representation of thought") but the qn becomes what is a good, worthwhile, novel thought from one which isn't any of these things..and how will I/you know it is that?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 12:09 (nineteen years ago)

Nobody mentioned Joe Satriani yet? I still play Surfing With The Alien and it's not because I think he's such a stellar musician.

― Brian O'Neill (NYCNative), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 12:22 (nineteen years ago)

-- Dan (Wilfull Ignorance Is Not Cool) Perry (djperry@gmail.com), February 21st, 2006.

Hardly, Dan Perry. I went to music school like (I think) you. I started the thread in part *because* I wanted to draw a distinction between virtuosic and wanky. Maybe the way I worded it pandered too much to the idea that virtuosity is something negative that must be overcome.

But I do think virtuosity has special potential to become wanky in rock and pop music - I woudln't even bother bringing up classical musicians, for example, where extensive command of one's instrument is just the minimum requirement to play a lot of the repertoire.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:24 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, exactly, obviously greater chops are required for jazz and classical just to play at all (If anybody mentions Kenny G, I'm coming after them).

Chris Squire
john entwistle
I knew the subjectivity of this point has been argued before and will be argued again, but don't most flashy bass players descend into wankery at some point in their career, if they don't start out there? With the notable exception of the Daddy Of Them All,
James Jamerson

Although Colin will probably say that it is just because of his dead strings, that we can't hear the wankery.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:35 (nineteen years ago)

Reggie Wanker
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/9/95/MalcolmMcDowellProfile.jpg

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 14:43 (nineteen years ago)

again, I think the key is gluttony. You may be onto something as far as rock and pop - is there more opporunity to "indulge" in rock as opposed to classical music? One could argue that classical musicians are forced to spend years learning their "craft" (often in isolation, or under strict tutilage), and as such, aren't given as many opportunities to indulge themselves without supervision, or an array of lesson books and performance deadlines/auditions to give them something "better" to do.

However, where do you draw the line between indulgence and just "she plays it like that because she's a great musician"? I don't personally believe there is a line, only an observer and a musician - each of whom will have some pretty definite opinions on the music they have just experienced. I agree, there are a lot of people who equate virtuosity with wankiness, which is ridiculous. By the same token, there are also a lot of people (probably just as many, if not more, especially outside the big rock/pop markets) who equate virtuosity with genius.

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 18:27 (nineteen years ago)

I always thought the reason classical musicians had to practice a lot was to play all the hard stuff that was written for them by the classical composers.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 18:47 (nineteen years ago)

it is rather hard to be wanky when yr playing other people's music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuoso.

the keyboard - brian eno bit made me laugh i have to say

can anyone define 'virtuoso' in a satisfying way?

― Peter Griffiths (young sensation gruppe), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

If they could, they wouldn't be here.

― Redd Harvest (Ken L), Wednesday, 22 February 2006 19:19 (nineteen years ago)

hmm..weirdly enough, last night I attn a piano recital, and one of the works played ws Michal Finnissy's 'Jazz' (from 1976). Haven't read the programme notes but it almost parodies the kind of virtuosity you get in classical circles, I'd say he's almost commenting on this thread! Its so full-on, one of those where you think 'anymore of this and he'll need an extra hand'; it works exactly at this line btw technique for 'good', and technique for a self-indulgent 'bad'. It only last about 5 mins. I'm sure he drew on Cecil Taylor's work but he generates many of his sounds with comparatively reserved motions.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 23 February 2006 10:32 (nineteen years ago)

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