Cannibal Ox - C or D

That said, I've accepted The Cold Vein as a challenge, and will keep listening until, hopefully, it will all click into place.

most of that i chalk up to el-p's very layered, analog sounding production. it's very unique and different from the jazzy, digital production that seems to be driving hip hop this year and last.

of course vast aire is completely insane and doesn't leave you much room to think but i guess that's just his style.

definitely not dud, but way too early to say classic.

but el-p's solo, erm, lp is even better...

In other words: AESOP ROCK I WANNA HAVE HIS BABIES HE'S SO DREAMY OOO OOO

From what I've heard, El-P's "Fantastic Damage" is even harsher... somewhere between Cannibal Ox and Techno Animal, which is somewhat of a thin space to begin with. Most of the time it sounds like El-P's rapping in an electric chair or a trash compactor or both or something or another.

Also, there's something about 'Cold Vein' makes me think that it would appeal less to seasoned 'trad' hip-hop listeners, who seem to prefer Aesop Rock - the lyrical trickery on a lighter production. Reynolds described C.O. as like a sort of heavy metal group in VV review. And there's definately elements that appeal to the WIRE crowd in there. Personally, I find the darkness of C.O. makes the record, best thing on Def Jux so far...

!!!

Compared to Company Flow's MCs, especially El-P, Vast and Vordul are like liquid butterscotch! Plus El-P's production is 8.7 times better on 'The Cold Vein.'

I was disappointed by "Labor Days". For some reason I thought that, after Cannibal Ox, the Def Jux label would carve out this intricate masterpiece with Aesop Rock in their hands but the album isn't that much of a departure from "Float". As much as I enjoy Aesop's idiosyncracy, his tracks too often come across as fancy (and forgettable) mic gymnastics beating around vague themes. Too much circumventing, I suppose.

I feel like the Cannibal Ox MCs have a bunch of lines that are incredibly potent, but about half are really tossed off. Aesop Rock hits damn close to 100% for me-- I can always understand where his lines are coming from rhythmically, and every word seems carefully chosen to fit into a larger context, with syllables strategically placed for emphasis, alliteration, etc. I appreciate that Aesop Rock seems like by far the most meticulous of the three MCs.

I think that's the reason I like him *less*, interestingly enough. The "tossed-off" lines from Can-Ox MCs make the great ones all the more crushing. Honda is pretty OTM with his "mic gymnastics" comment; listening to AR can be like watching a really skilled gymnast: "Oooh, wow, another perfectly executed double flip with a half-twist! Oh, look at that perfect form!" It can get tiresome, at least to me.

Otie, I swear I'm gonna finish that Susie Ibarra review.

i seriously have no idea how you could say that. this might be cannibal ox's first full album but i understand they're definitely not to it (i read 8 years with the atoms fam in an interview). i love aesop but cannibal ox just grabs my attention more... in my opinion this is the most listenable cd since 3rd eye vision.

i think you should listen to it for a while or leave it alone and come back to it, cuz i didnt like the cold vein when i first heard it. once you catch the groove of it its the freshest shit in the universe...

WHAAT!? how much farther from gangsta rap could cann ox possibly be? some people on here have pretty strong opinions for how well they can reason... vast aire and vordul grew up in uptown new york, they have a right to talk about it, and they present a different viewpoint on it; besides that, its not really their main topic.

As for the gig, my heart sank for first two minutes ... "YEAH YEAH CANNIBAL OX CANNIBAL OX MAKE SOME MOTHERFUCKIN' NOISE! ETCET" ... but it soon got going. Good, but not great. Main problem: Vast Aire has a really unique voice which I really enjoy listening to, but when he's bellowing into a mike he sounds like Heavy D or summat.

Watch as I get pointed and laughed at as I say that The Cold Vein was my favorite album of 2001, though I'm not 100% sure why beyond "wow it's like Wu-Tang only with Philip K. Dick instead of kung-fu" and "damn El-P makes some crazy sounds" and "'life is mean/and death is the median/and purgatory is the mode that we settle in'- oh damn".

"boy meets world, of course his pops is gone, what you figure? that chalky outline on the ground is a father figure? so he steps to the next stencil, thats a hustler, infested with money and diamond cluster..."

Rhymes this dense and textured you can never get bored of, or tire of their endless invention.

I found Can Ox to be quite easy to listen to. I mean, their melodic and repetitve in all the right ways, its just some of the verbosity in the lyrics and the un-hip hopness of the sounds in the production which could be off putting. To be honest, although he's in danger of becoming a bit of a cliche, EL-P is a genius, a producer on the level of the most hardcore abstract electronica (i read somewhere Autechre were big fans of co. flow) but with the funk element never missing.

Think what you like, but "The Cold Vein" is imho a masterwork to which nothing can compare within hip hop.

Fantastic Damage sounds fucking excellent as well, with Step Father factory standing out as possibly the best track EL-P's ever produced. Dripping with sadness and mechanised horror, like Grandmaster Flash's brave new future turned to shit.

Aesop Rock? a bit cleaner, more positive, less transcendental. less dense, i guess it all comes down to which aesthetic you prefer. Aesop is good, damn good, and no doubt about it, but the harsher, darker vibes of co.flow/ can ox/ EL-P just suit my personal tastes. out.

According to hiphopsite, Cannibal Ox have LEFT Dex Jux and Vast Aire's solo record is coming out on Chocolate!

http://www.hiphopsite.com/NEWS/

Merz for Cannibal Ox = a lopsided trade of Kenny Williams proportions

(I need at least one person to get my Kenny Williams joke.)

Arg.

beauty and the beat was my favorite record ever for like a week and then i never listened to it again

you have heard paul's boutique, right louis?

listened to this for the first time since year-of-release today! neither of them can really rap very well, can they

I think Vast Aire has a very distinctive ultra-slow flow that sounds cool, and (I would assume) is not that easy to master. But it's true Vordul doesn't sound like a particularly good rapper technically: his flow is mostly just word after word after word, without much emphasis on rhythmic nuance or pauses.

love vast's flow. some of the most memorable lyrics i've ever heard, regardless. cold vein is still like a punch to the throat.

I saw Cannibal Ox at ATP about 8 years ago, El-P fell off the stage, then later in the bar he gave me a dirty look for wearing a Rawkus t-shirt :-(

he would rather be mouth-fucked by nazis, unconcious

you have heard paul's boutique, right louis?

um

let's just say that this is the start of a long and beautiful voyage

holy crap...

what amazing discoveries lay before you.

http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/references/YoLaTengoSugarcube.jpg
"I envy you... So much rocking left to do..."

loooool love that video

i have 'ill comm' and 'lic. to ill' on my itunes, but yr saying paul's boutique is the one?

Paul's Boutique is easily their best IMO- amazing, kaleidoscopic production and their best rapping too. Produced by the Dust Brothers at the height of their powers.

Paul's Boutique is just one of these albums that lives up to the hype. Get it get it get it, preferably in the remastered edition that came out this time last year.

Or acquire it as a rar, however you roll.

"I envy you... So much rocking head-nodding left to do..."

LJ I think you will probably fuck with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu8byoPkPe0

Basically I just put on the new album by The Herbaliser whom I have never really been into, which remains the case EXCEPT it has three tracks w/ Jean Grae on, which get me recalling that Jean Grae is awes, which got me thinking about her bonkers guest spot on that Mr Len album that probably sold about 12 copies

There were about two tracks by the herbalizer with scratching on in the early 90s that were alright. Was one called The Blend? They were Ninja Tune's house band right?

this is a) fucking gripping, and b) approximately 37589x better than 'Frankie Teardrop'

"Taco Day" is like Jean Grae's least favorite song

I still fuck with the Very Mercenary album

xp while googling it just now cos I couldn't remember the title, I found some lyrics where she calls out Chris Lombardi from Matador, so idk if that has something to do with it? I mean it would be a shame if she just thought it sucked

Basically I just put on the new album by The Herbaliser whom I have never really been into, which remains the case EXCEPT it has three tracks w/ Jean Grae on

i think that new herb album is a career-spanning comp

Have been listening to TCV on repeat. Holy shit this is good. Best fucking gateway drug ever.

yea you said it sausage s4rgent

Forget Nas, forget Tupac, forget Public Enemy: rap does not get better than The Cold Vein.

oh dear.

Yes, it's a dude proclaiming a relatively obscure critic's fav record is better than records by a bunch of less obscure critic's fav acts. In the Guardian, no less.

article coulda been worse. I still like that record. 7/10

its a cool record with truly incredible beats but i could never 'feel' anything vast aire says.

which negates the rap part of the album for me

hence why i would rather listen to fantastic damage (or one of the rappers which cold vein is apparently better than)

not sure how you're using "feel" there; but I do understand complaints about the rapping failing to live up to the production

btw totally offtopic but have you listened to/do you like Food For Animals?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ9HUB6sC6I

^^^reminds me of some El-P shit

not heard that but will check it out. but yeah i meant i thought the rapping on cold vein was a bit weak compared to the album. i just hear it and think how amazing it might have been with say, wu-tang on it. do like vordul though - always felt he was slept on compared to vast aire.

*compared to the beats

its a cool record with truly incredible beats but i could never 'feel' anything vast aire says.

― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Monday, August 15, 2011 10:14 AM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark

i was basically ambivalent about the raps on this, but the yeah the beats were p amazing

i think the lyrics are pretty stunning. i dunno. if your whole beef with the feature is the guy has a different opinion to you then i don't know what to say. maybe other people like different stuff? LALL.

i dont have beef with the article. its a good piece. i just have beef with the ending. i know its about favourite albums and thats all subjective, but it just seems like a typical thing people who dont really like or listen to much hip hop say.

the last sentence of the article doesn't follow from all of the preceding sentences

When will massively underrated cult heroes Nas and Public Enemy receive their due from the critical establishment?

Cannibal Ox
The Cold Vein
Def Jux
2010

"When will massively underrated cult heroes Nas and Public Enemy receive their due from the critical establishment?"

lol fair point

PE almost exist in their own universe in these discussions but i wouldnt be surprised if more guardian/nme/wire/plan b/quietus/stool pigeon etc readers had heard cold vein then they had illmatic

i'm so bored shitless by this whole "if you love can ox then you can't have heard/loved much hip hop" bullshit, it is so tired. it's elitist, it's knee-jerk, and its beneath a dude who i know loves erykah badu and is therefore rad.

like, engage with the text, critique it. but while criticising them via their audience will doubtless win you kudos from the ilm peanut gallery, its pretty fucking lame.

that first el-p elpee is pretty glorious - 'toj' is as good as emo-hip-hop (ew) gets, 'stepfather family' is still heart-stopping. but 'cold vein' is still better to me: the extended pigeon metaphor, 'scream phoenix', etc (though i'm not sure if big juss's first LP, the one with gaffling whips and dedication to peo on it, isn't bettter still.)

i've probably mentioned this upthread, but i interviewed vast on the day the gulf war began (i think? maybe the first attacks on afghanistan?). he was staying in the columbia hotel in london, with his dj cip asleep in the bed next to him. the tv was running on the background throughout, and he sat there with three texts open before him: a copy of the bible, a copy of the Mirror, and a really graphic porno magazine. he was a really great interviewee (i wish i knew where that tape was now).

Anyway if this record has a flaw, it's not the rapping, but the fact that like seemingly every other late-90s/early-00s hip hop record it's a million hours long.

So stevie what youre saying is you havent heard illmatic. :-P I get what youre saying, maybe rap nerd hangups are hard to shake. Im going to do a fandam vs cold vein poll tho as fandam really
is the best rap album ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igS6u1bF9zw

weird that nothing ever came of this track, at least that I know of

So stevie what youre saying is you havent heard illmatic. :-P

ha! no, i have, and i think its sublime. but is there not the possibility that i love cold vein as much or more, that it touches different parts of me, and that that opinion is not invalid because i'm an 'NME reader' (which I haven't been for almost a decade now, though I wrote the NME's original album review of the Cold Vein ten years ago)? i know you're just yanking my chain here, but the "its rap for pitchfork readers" volley closes down the discourse in a way that's depressing.

am into this new album. vast i actually like more than i ever did before for whatever reason, vordul has lost a step or two, but there is some really good stuff on here. obv its not the cold vein, but theyve tried to keep with that sound, and maybe its better el-p isnt involved these days, im not sure he could go back to his older style, hes gotten more 'normal' with RTJ.

i listened to cold vein yesterday, it still sounds pretty good. some awkward turns of phrase but great sounds. they should reissue it again.

^^^ correct

some pretty great turns of phrase too

"fuck five mics, i want 108"

Album is great, I loved it then, I love it now