TS: The Cure Vs. Joy Division

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Now, imagine the following alternative historic events:

- Robert Smiths commits suicide just before the release of "Pornography"
- Ian Curtis is still alive and still the singer of Joy Division, whose guitarist Barney Sumner has however become a more prominent songwriter throughout the years - their three biggest hits, "Blue Monday", "True Faith" and "Regret" all composed by Sumner.

Which band would then have been most likely to appear with 1-2 albums in lots of "Best Albums Of All Time" lists?

Personally, I easily prefer early The Cure to Joy Division. Joy Division may have had a sort of interesting "depressive" style, and they may have been synth pioneers within "dark" musical styles. However, they were never even on level with the best songs on "17 Seconds" and "Faith".

Thus, The Cure are my pick. No doubt about it.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 24 February 2006 19:13 (twenty years ago)

What makes you think Barney Sumner writes the songs for New Order?

― Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:14 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division by the widest margin I can imagine (although, objectively speaking, the Cure are probably a more accomplished band).

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:20 (twenty years ago)

If they'd stopped after Unknown Pleasures, I wonder if anyone would ever even compare the two bands.

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:21 (twenty years ago)

Accomplished? What do you mean?

― Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:22 (twenty years ago)

Robert Smith's biggest accomplishment is his pie intake.

― Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:24 (twenty years ago)

zing!

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:25 (twenty years ago)

seriously joy division by at least seventy cubits

― wangdangsweetpentangle (teenagequiet), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:26 (twenty years ago)

If they'd stopped after Unknown Pleasures, I wonder if anyone would ever even compare the two bands.

UP is far superior to anything the Cure (or Joy Division) ever did! Have you and I had the UP vs Closer argument before? I can't remember.

I also pick Joy Division by approximately 180 lumens.

― NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:41 (twenty years ago)

Closer < Unknown Pleasures

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 24 February 2006 19:45 (twenty years ago)

No, I agree Unknown Pleasures is the best Joy Division and amongst the essential rock albums of all time. I just think their sound up to that point (give or take "Atmosphere") is a lot harder, rock-er, and starker than anything by the Cure, so much so that they almost seem like a different genre to me. I'm always a little surprised people compare the two bands (partly because I really love JD and can't really get into the Cure) so often but I can see it a little bit in Closer and "Love Will Tear Us Apart" (and more in early New Order).

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 24 February 2006 19:56 (twenty years ago)

atmosphere didn't come out before unknown pleasures, did it?

― kyle (akmonday), Friday, 24 February 2006 20:10 (twenty years ago)

the Cure never reached the same heights JD did, of course, but JD put out a lot of (I dunno, filler doesn't feel like the right term...) unremarkable material in a brief amount of time. Cure wins on more stuff released.

― Aaron A, Friday, 24 February 2006 20:11 (twenty years ago)

Oh kyle's right, "Atmosphere" was a few months after UP.

― Sundar (sundar), Friday, 24 February 2006 20:26 (twenty years ago)

I think Closer>Unknown Pleasures, but that both > any Cure album. No comparison in my eyes, Joy Division is just one of my favorite bands ever.

― Harrison Barr (Petar), Friday, 24 February 2006 21:23 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division. Period.

― Edward Bax (EdBax), Friday, 24 February 2006 21:41 (twenty years ago)

However, they were never even on level with the best songs on "17 Seconds" and "Faith".

Interestingly, even Robert Smith wouldn't agree with this!

Joy Division by a long, long distance.

― dee xtro (dee xtro), Friday, 24 February 2006 21:54 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division, easy.

― midi sanskrit (sanskrit), Friday, 24 February 2006 21:56 (twenty years ago)

REGGAETON!!!!!!!!!

― Confounded (Confounded), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:37 (twenty years ago)

disintegration is better than closer.

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:44 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division, no question.

― xero (xero), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:50 (twenty years ago)

Both bands are peerless and this is an incredibly pointless comparison.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:52 (twenty years ago)

― p.j. (Henry), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:55 (twenty years ago)

I gotta go with The Cure.

― darin (darin), Friday, 24 February 2006 22:56 (twenty years ago)

bye then

― blunt (blunt), Friday, 24 February 2006 23:02 (twenty years ago)

you are an idiot, geir. no doubt about it.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Friday, 24 February 2006 23:09 (twenty years ago)

i love 17 seconds and faith but as a live band joy div were on a different level.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Friday, 24 February 2006 23:17 (twenty years ago)

first, Bernard Sumner never, never would have come to the front and contributed lyrics to Joy Division, thankfully.

the only way to do this properly is to look at each bands first 2 albums. answers easy then, Joy Division by a mile.

― biz, Friday, 24 February 2006 23:46 (twenty years ago)

as an album, 17 Seconds beats the fuck out of either U.P. or Closer.

― Aaron A, Friday, 24 February 2006 23:52 (twenty years ago)

both, I mean

― Aaron A, Friday, 24 February 2006 23:52 (twenty years ago)

i love 17 seconds but it's nowhere near as emotionally stimulating as the JD albums. it's a great album, but not nearly as huge as UP or Closer to my ears. i guess that's why there's a discussion though.

― biz, Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:00 (twenty years ago)

I think the Cure wins just by the simple fact that they did Three Imaginary Boys. It shows a different side before becoming really dark.

― BeeOK (boo radley), Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:36 (twenty years ago)

who would want a different Cure side?

Joy Division by zillions of miles

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:40 (twenty years ago)

The day when I don't agree with Ned I will buy myself an ice-cream

― Zora (Zora), Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:48 (twenty years ago)

Well, if I don't count "Head On The Door" - my favourite Cure album - or "Let's Go To Bed", "Just Like Heaven" and "Friday I'm In Love" - my favourite Cure singles - I will still go for The Cure for those three albums only. I have never quite "gotten" Joy Division even though "Unknown Pleasures" has its moments.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 25 February 2006 00:59 (twenty years ago)

Unknown Pleasures is a moment, unlike any other moment

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:00 (twenty years ago)

No single moment on any Joy Division album is even close to the greatness of "A Forest, "Play For Today", "Other Voices" or "The Funeral Party".

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:02 (twenty years ago)

right. how about this:

it's an entity that crushes everything Cure's ever done

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:04 (twenty years ago)

I have to admit the Cure is much easier on my ears but artistically speaking, I appreaciate JD more than The Cure.

― Miranda Leigh (Miranda Leigh), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:25 (twenty years ago)

if ian curtis lived would he still adore the group ?
if there was no "love will tear us apart" would we talk about the group?
who can sing the verse for love will tear us apart ?

the cure have more than 30 singles and good album tracks.

― fatbob, Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:35 (twenty years ago)

TS: anything vs joy division ... joy division wins. it's that simple.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Saturday, 25 February 2006 01:42 (twenty years ago)

I don't love either band and yet I have to agree with Ned. I see no real need to even place the 2 bands in competition. To me suggesting that Joy Division is a no brainer winner is a largely brainless opinion. The Cure has a huge discography and some very splendid moments, and Joy Division has a very compact, but absolutely solid discography. I personally don't like Joy Division all that much, but the Cure has a lot of shoddiness from album to album.

Of course, Joy Division's dominance in this question is predictable enough. Rock orthodoxy is so in place, one can predict the dominant opinion without even looking at the thread. Of course the "historically important and canonized" post punk band when win all. It's like the Can Vs. Faust debate. Soon as I saw that I knew Can would have the most supporters despite the fact that most listeners haven't even heard that much post-70s Faust. Hmmmm, let's see, who's the critical darling and most overpraised of the two? Which one has the best hipster magazine coverage?

Likewise, the Cure doesn't stand a chance against Joy Division among male rock enthusiasts. One was sanctified by the press, the other wasn't. Done, done, and done.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Saturday, 25 February 2006 04:13 (twenty years ago)

I pretty much completely agree with James here.

― Dan (Geir, You Know Better Than This) Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 25 February 2006 05:20 (twenty years ago)

Just curious: Has anyone met Geir in-real-life? Although I rarely agree with him, I'll bet he's nicer than anyone else here. I like you Geir.

― Okeigh, Saturday, 25 February 2006 05:59 (twenty years ago)

there is no real life my friend

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 10:46 (twenty years ago)

Dude, if Liam Gallagher's eyes had pointed in the same direction and as a result he wasn't such a bitter prick, and if Damon Albarn had OD'd and died after picking up a junk habit when he was dating that girl from Elastica who used to be kind of hot but now is all dumpy looking, would Parklife or Definitely Maybe be considered an all-time great record?

― Giles Manius (jsoulja), Saturday, 25 February 2006 11:38 (twenty years ago)

fuck no what are you talking about

― rizzx (Rizz), Saturday, 25 February 2006 12:06 (twenty years ago)

one is popular and successful and the other is joy division.lol.
cop-u-lator.

― retrogurl, Saturday, 25 February 2006 13:07 (twenty years ago)

James, is it really that hard to believe that many of us have listened to a lot by both bands and just prefer Joy Division? The only reason I didn't expand on my opinion is because I've posted a lot about my opinions of both bands on this board and didn't think it would be worthwhile to bring it all up again. It's not like the Cure catalogue is obscure or anything. I felt like I heard them in every other bar or coffeeshop in Toronto (but, yes, I've listened to enough of their albums too). FWIW I'd take UP over The Clash, Second Edition, Pink Flag, or any U2 I've heard as well (and would easily vote for Yes over Pink Floyd and probably Smashing Pumpkins over Nirvana) so I'm not just voting for the more critically acclaimed band. I don't think anyone else is either.

― Sundar (sundar), Saturday, 25 February 2006 15:25 (twenty years ago)

James, is it really that hard to believe that many of us have listened to a lot by both bands and just prefer Joy Division?

YOU FREAK. ;-)

It's not that hard for me to believe at all -- I'm just so thoroughly inculcated in a happy and extensive love of both that I'm all, "This is like taking sides between pizza and pasta."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 25 February 2006 15:29 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 80 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Ya punk.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 27 February 2006 00:48 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division. Robert Smith's singing just annoys me. But although I kind of like Joy Division, I could easily do without either band forever.

Well, considering that almost everyone posting on this thread is like 30 and were fans of both bands long before the hipster coverage hit the saturation point, I'm gonna say you're full of shit.

Yeah, I think I had a chance to form opinions before rock orthodoxy set in, liked both Joy Division and the Cure in the early 80s, etc.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Monday, 27 February 2006 00:53 (twenty years ago)

Also, I am not a rock enthusiast.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Monday, 27 February 2006 00:57 (twenty years ago)

They are all merely boys compared to a real man like Stelios Kazantzidis.

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Monday, 27 February 2006 01:05 (twenty years ago)

Joy Division by 43 furlongs.

― cnwb (cnwb), Monday, 27 February 2006 02:34 (twenty years ago)

I love the Cure but Joy Division still scares me, so JD.

― JB Young (JB Young), Monday, 27 February 2006 03:05 (twenty years ago)

Ha! If Joy Division actually scares you, you should listen to more music, diversify. Because they're about as scary as Bel Biv Devoe. Seriously. You're culling a lot of atmosphere and darkness from a threadbare rhythm section and some dour theatrics. I'm presenting this as an opinion rather than a substantive argument, so please don't kill me.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Monday, 27 February 2006 03:54 (twenty years ago)

You only like the Chameleons because bucking the 'canon' satisifes your male contrarian impulse. (NB I have never heard the Chameleons.)

No, they're just the best that UK post-punk/new wave scene has to offer outside of Wire in my very humble opinion. And also because I'm a cliched contratian sort.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Monday, 27 February 2006 03:58 (twenty years ago)

This is kinda like Bowie vs. Eno or Devo vs. Kraftwerk or whoever vs. Can ie. you know the hivemind answer before you even open the thread. I know everyone here is *above* being influenced by critical opinon/likes what they like, etc., but c'mon...

― darin (darin), Monday, 27 February 2006 07:43 (twenty years ago)

zzz

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 27 February 2006 08:43 (twenty years ago)

TS: Take That vs. 23 Skidoo

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 27 February 2006 08:45 (twenty years ago)

**Ha! If Joy Division actually scares you, you should listen to more music, diversify. Because they're about as scary as Bel Biv Devoe. **

Please continue to amuse us with such opinions, James.

**You're culling a lot of atmosphere and darkness from a threadbare rhythm section and some dour theatrics.**

OK, let's thrash this one out. Threadbare rhythm section - pls explain, I can't imagine what you mean. Because what I hear is a powerful & innovative rhythm section - at times it's Steve + Hooky, sometimes Steve + Barney, sometimes Steve alone and sometimes all of them who are driving the music forward. Dour theatrics - I'm not against theatrics, but surely you can hear that IC is beyond that.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 27 February 2006 09:44 (twenty years ago)

The Chameleons? A bit of glum stadium postpunk is fine once in a while, but apart from the odd track, I can't really get excited about them. 'In Shreds' was a cracking track tho.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 27 February 2006 09:48 (twenty years ago)

threadbare rhythm section

yeah this really is trash. that pair could well be one of the greatest rhythm sections of all time. inasmuch as you can call what hooky does merely "rhythm"

― electric sound of jim (and why not) (electricsound), Monday, 27 February 2006 10:01 (twenty years ago)

I think Geir misses the point about how JD/NO wrote music compared with Robert Smith. Compositionally, Smith is a traditional singer/songwriter - a great one. JD were in some ways a product of post-punk idealism in that their songs are group compositions, hence the range of sonic experimentation. JD/NO should be taken as a single continuous entity. There is a progression of style from the JD-penned Ceremony to the happier, poppier: procession -> temptation -> blue monday, but despite the loss of their brilliant lyricist/singer IT IS STILL RECOGNISABLY THE SAME BAND. Therefore you can't pit the Cure's entire output against 2 JD albums and a couple of singles, you have to take the whole, and great as the cure are, they were not responsible for the kind of seismic shift that JD brought, and then did again as NO. I don't buy the whole 'curtis only revered because he topped himself' argument (you also hear it with cobain). By that reckoning Dylan should have died young and not shown human frailty.

― dr x o'skeleton, Monday, 27 February 2006 10:04 (twenty years ago)

Totally OTM, dr x.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 27 February 2006 10:20 (twenty years ago)

"Wanna guess my answer to the original question?"

You're stretching my psychic powers to breaking point now Doc.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 27 February 2006 11:59 (twenty years ago)

further thoughts on this. It's inconceivable that jamie cullen would ever cover JD's Heart and Soul, which is so firmly rooted in hook's womb-like bass, steve morris's snare rolls and those glacial keyboards, as much as in curtis' vocal melody and lyrics.
Yes yes I know that Paul Young did Love will tear us apart, but..but.. "that's murder 1, lieutenant..."
The point is that Friday I'm in Love and Boys Don't Cry are pop songs malleable enough to be taken from their creator's hands and covered. The importance of JD/NO's songs lies in sound of the records overall, because of the level of innovation that the group members brought along. No other member of the Cure stands out like that.
I recall Geir arguing that drummers weren't important on an earlier thread (some people suggested he was kidding). But his preference for the Cure over JD is entirely consistent with that view.

― dr x o'skeleton, Monday, 27 February 2006 13:14 (twenty years ago)

Bel Biv Devoe's "Poison" had a killer beat too!

― Sundar (sundar), Monday, 27 February 2006 20:04 (twenty years ago)

"Poison" is pretty bad ass actually.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 04:12 (twenty years ago)

This thread did motivate me to dig out my old Cure albums. What immediatly impresses is the strength of songs like Play for Today, M, Other Voices. Boys Don't Cry could almost be the Buzzcocks, albeit without John Maher's wonderful drum racket. A drummer is credited on 17 Seconds, but it sure as hell sounds like a drum machine stuck on the same monotonous setting. Faith is almost completely devoid of colour - an album I've never had much affection for. Compared to the visceral thrill of Disorder, Shadowplay, Colony, it all seems pretty lifeless.
My copy of Pornography went AWOL some years ago, but had a more full-blooded sound, if memory serves. The twisting guitar line in Strange Day and the drum pattern in 100 Years stick in my mind.

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 10:49 (twenty years ago)

You picked out the songs that I really like - Play For Today, Other voices etc. I disagree about Faith - I think it's probably their best recd. The resignation and grace of Other Voices/All Cats/Funeral Party/Faith is carried off pretty well. Smith is definitely believeable here. I like the contrast between the core of the album and the thrashings of Primary and Doubt, where he refuses to accept that it's all done and dusted.

I can't say that I ever want to hear Carnage Visors again.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 12:51 (twenty years ago)

I'll try to give Faith another chance, Dr C, but it just reminds me of dull afternoons during 1/2 term not doing my homework. For some reason I thought Charlotte Sometimes was on Faith too, till I looked again - now that was a great tune.

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 13:27 (twenty years ago)

faith could be my fave too. it has to do with the fact that it hasn't got played to death on my stereo. there are no standout singles on it as far as i know. it's all of one piece. a moody, understated album. mellow and not as obsessively dark as 17 seconds which is my other choice by them. robert smith hasn't yet become a prisoner of his shtick as on later albums.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 13:35 (twenty years ago)

there are no standout singles on it as far as i know.

Er, "Primary"?????????

― Dan (Am I The Only Person Who Adores This Song?) Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 14:14 (twenty years ago)

i thought everyone liked primary. it's the song that everyone would put on mix-tapes.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 14:18 (twenty years ago)

**during 1/2 term not doing my homework**

Every time I hear Faith I'm in my university hall of residence, late afternoon when you know you should be in lectures, should be in the library, but you're lying on yr bed in a state of gentle meloncholia. Happy days.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 14:36 (twenty years ago)

sorry, i forgot primary. it must be the age...

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 14:53 (twenty years ago)

faith is so fab. i've always thought that seventeen seconds was the weakest cure album of the 80's. and compared to faith (which i was prompted to do in the 80's since i owned the vinyl twofer of 17 seconds/faith) it is downright anemic. two good songs - play for today and its sequel a forest - and that's about it. i don't think at night or m or the title track are all that strong and the instrumentals sounded like filler to me. the debut was a hoot, faith is great, ditto pornography and on and on till i gave up (after disintegration).

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:02 (twenty years ago)

i have fond memories of listening to my faith/carnage visors tape on my first ever walkman in easterhouse in 1982. faith always reminds me of winter. i can happily listen to faith and pornography on repeat but can't really say the same for joy division (with the exception of unknown pleaseures).

― frenchbloke (frenchbloke), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:08 (twenty years ago)

Ah beautiful glorious Faith. It for me is the key Cure album after all these years, I can listen to it any time.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:09 (twenty years ago)

faith was a true leap! (sorry) they didn't sound like a skiffle group anymore.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:15 (twenty years ago)

I like the idea of Robert singing "My Old Man's a Dustman."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:17 (twenty years ago)

it just occurred to me that dan perry would LOVE katatonia's discouraged ones album. any cure fan would.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:19 (twenty years ago)

17 seconds anemic? what you describe as filler on it, is the getting into the mood (in the beginning) and the mounting of the tension (the two short instrumentals before a forest). i still think that 17 seconds is one of the starkest and darkest albums around (but of course second to unknown pleasures). especially when listened to in a dark cellar in winter at 3am.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:22 (twenty years ago)

Weren't you cold?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:23 (twenty years ago)

* like the idea of Robert singing "My Old Man's a Dustman." *

How about:

does your hairspray lose it's texture in the bedclothes overnight

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:23 (twenty years ago)

Weren't you cold?
relatively speaking cellars are rather warm in winter compared to the upper floors in a house.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:27 (twenty years ago)

I thought heat travelled upwards.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:54 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but if you're in the cellar you're closer to hell.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 15:55 (twenty years ago)

isn't that down below

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 16:17 (twenty years ago)

you are on the right track, ned. in the cellar you are indeed closer to the centre of the earth. where the temperature doesn't change when the seasons change. in the cellar it is similar. the variation of the temperature is much smaller than in the rest of the house.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 16:32 (twenty years ago)

University of the Air presents Robert Smith on physics:

"This is a songmurflemumblelowvoicetrailing off...this is called "Cold!""

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 16:33 (twenty years ago)

it just occurred to me that dan perry would LOVE katatonia's discouraged ones album. any cure fan would.

Definitely.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Wednesday, 1 March 2006 17:23 (twenty years ago)

six months pass...

Isn't this incredibly unfair? They have totally different merits!

― J.H. Malerman (xada_hgla), Sunday, 17 September 2006 17:59 (nineteen years ago)

you want fairness? this is ILM, dude.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 17 September 2006 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

now, PICK ONE

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 17 September 2006 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

not heard much JD at all, but exposed to Cure at very early age, so they're now one of my favourite bands, whose songs have always struck me as being perfect emotional pop. Especially Pornography. Pornography is a pop record, and one of the very best; I'm not saying that to sound learned, I genuinely believe it.

I'm not going to make a choice, though, owing to my lack of JD.

― Space Gourmand (Haberdager), Sunday, 17 September 2006 22:33 (nineteen years ago)

I still find this thread deeply irritating.

― Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Monday, 18 September 2006 02:44 (nineteen years ago)

yeh! this is ILM, dude!

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Monday, 18 September 2006 08:08 (nineteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.