John Lennon and his penchant for silly half-time changes in almost every song

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He did this SO often. List songs where he doesn't fall back on this signature compositional tactic. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are "I am the Walrus" and "Tomorrow Never Knows"...

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:41 (nineteen years ago)

He's terrible.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 22:46 (nineteen years ago)

Geir to thread.

― js (honestengine), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:05 (nineteen years ago)

What's an example of a "half-time change" in a Lennon tune (so I know what we're talking about)?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:23 (nineteen years ago)

girl, I assume

― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:26 (nineteen years ago)

Alan W. Pollack says "I Dig A Pony." I'm trying to hear it.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:27 (nineteen years ago)

norweigan wood doesn't do it, unless you're talking about something else. neither does imagine.

― kyle (akmonday), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:27 (nineteen years ago)

not sure I understand the question, but...

a day in the life
norwegian wood
in my life
nowhere man
the word
yer blues
please please me
me & my monkey
I'll be back
you've got to hide your love away
it's only love
yes it is
I'm a loser
baby's in black
I should have known better
julia
polythene pam
mean mr. mustard
revolution #9

― darin (darin), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:33 (nineteen years ago)

some examples:
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds
Strawberry Fields Forever
Its Only Love
Girl
Dr. Robert
Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite

plus all the half-time bridges he inserted into Paul's songs (We Can Work it Out, for ex.)

there's a bunch more...

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:37 (nineteen years ago)

Are you talking about something like the instrumental break in "Any Time At All"? Is that what we are supposed to not be listing?

xpost

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:38 (nineteen years ago)

yes, and I Dig A Pony does it too.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:40 (nineteen years ago)

Everybody's Got Something to Hide *totally* changes time! The opening riff is twice as slow as the rhythym in the verses.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:42 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno... this all seems like it might have more to do with Ringo's style rather than John's songwriting (Starr probably had a lot more wiggle room in Lennon's song rather than McCartney's).

― darin (darin), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:42 (nineteen years ago)

Oh yeah, I forgot about the opening riff.

― darin (darin), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:44 (nineteen years ago)

You seem to think this is a bad thing, Shakey.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:47 (nineteen years ago)

There is no metrical or tempo change on "It's Only Love."

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:51 (nineteen years ago)

nah I don't think its a bad thing at all! In a fit of nerdiness I've been listening to all the Beatles stuff in chronological order and I just noticed this as a trope in Lennon's writing that comes up a lot.

Tim - I don't think the opening descending riff in "It's Only Love" is in the same time signature as the "I get high when I see you go by..." verse part.

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:53 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, I thought it was the mark of a good rhythm section and good songwriting to change it up between verse/bridge/chorus. Are you going to call Burt Bacharach/Aretha Franklin/Bernard Purdie silly for picking it up on the chorus of "Say A Little Prayer"?

There is no metrical or tempo change on "It's Only Love."
Maybe he's trying to say that the guitar hook is kind of synocopated eighth-note based, but the vocal is straight on the quarter notes?

There's definitely some kind of tempo change in "I Want You (She's So Heavy)"

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:54 (nineteen years ago)

You might as well take someone to task for the silly trick of "delaying the V chord" or something like that.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:56 (nineteen years ago)

Or "that silly trick of switching from the hi-hat to the ride."

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:58 (nineteen years ago)

There is no metrical or tempo shift in "Any Time at All" (those are just triplets in the instr. break).

x-post: "It's Only Love" is four-four, in the same tempo, from beginning to end (that intro is repeated at the end).

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 23:58 (nineteen years ago)

I feel like Basil Fawlty should come on this thread and say "Nobody mention the Beatles!"

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:01 (nineteen years ago)

I mentioned them once, but I think I got away with it.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:02 (nineteen years ago)

I think what we are talking about here is NOT a tempo change, but when he sometimes sticks in a single bar of 5/4 or 2/4 time into a 4/4 song while the tempo remains the same. eg. At the end of each verse of "Cry Baby Cry" there's a single bar of 2/4 before the chorus. To me this tendancy has always been indicative of Lennon's intuitive and creative songwriting style. "All You Need Is Love" switches around all the time between 4/4 and 5/4 and would probably be less interesting if it didn't.

― everything, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:07 (nineteen years ago)

He does that in Happiness is a Warm Gun, too. The time signature alternates between 3/4 and 4/4 during the "mother superior jumped the gun" part

― darin (darin), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:14 (nineteen years ago)

My understanding is that what Shakey was talking about was not a tempo change, but a change in feel. Same tempo, but it feels faster or slower.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:18 (nineteen years ago)

I think the "Mother Superior jumped the gun" bit is in 9/8 time.

― everything, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:20 (nineteen years ago)

nah I'm talkin tempo/time sig changes as well - sorry if I lack the technical terminology to better express myself.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:25 (nineteen years ago)

Ultimately, I think he does tempo/time/metrical changes 'cos his melodies can be quite flat and repetative and it make them more interesting.

― everything, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:27 (nineteen years ago)

There's no real shift per se in "Girl," either. It's just that when they get to the "tit tit tit" part, they drop the swing feel because of the straight eighth notes.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:32 (nineteen years ago)

From Alan Pollack's 'Notes On' Series re: "Happiness"

Part 3: Mother Superior Jumped The Gun

- This section is characterized by a special rhythmic effect that occurs in the first measure of every phrase, technically referred to as a "hemiola." The term is applied to any situation in which a phrase of music written in a ternary meter (e.g. 3/4) contains one or more instances where either an isolated single measure is accented as if were 2 triplets (i.e. 6/8), or a pair of measures are accented as if they were 3 measures of 2/4. If you're at a loss for a pop-music precedent, try "America" from Leonard Bernstein's _West Side Story_.

- The section is built out of 3 phrase pairs, the second of which is consistently one beat longer than the first; is it John or Mr. Martin who proposed such details?

6/8|a 3/4|C |- |
a: i III

6/8|a 3/4|G 4/4|- |
i flat-VII

― darin (darin), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 00:38 (nineteen years ago)

There are some weird bars of 3/4 in "She Said She Said." See Alan Pollack for an explanation.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 01:52 (nineteen years ago)

If you're at a loss for a pop-music precedent, try "America"
I guess it's finally time to link to this thread

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 02:02 (nineteen years ago)

Did this thread really get this for w/o anyone mentioning "Don't Let Me Down"? 4/4 chorus, 5/4 verses!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 02:16 (nineteen years ago)

or so I've read, anyway; it might be different. but there is a marked change in the structure of the two components.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 02:17 (nineteen years ago)

There's no five, but there's a triple feel to the eighth notes in the verses: 3+3+2. I'm not really sure what the best way to notate that would be.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 03:47 (nineteen years ago)

According to Ian MacDonald ("Revolution in the Head") this is "Happiness Is A Warm Gun". It took them 95 takes, no friggin' wonder!

"Startin with four bars of common time, the first section changes key for an eight-and-three-quarter bar passage (1 X 4/4, 1 X 2/4, 6 X 4/4,1X1/4, 1X4/4) before moving to the second section: twice round ten bars in 3/8 (grouped as 3+4+3) with the extra complication of a rising two-bar bass phrase in canon with the vocal. After one tacit bar, the third secion arrives: thrice round a highly unstable structure analysable as 1 X 6/8, 1 X 8/8, 1 X 4/8, 1 X 8/8, 1 X 6/8. The closing section consists of four bars of 4/4, twelve of 3/8 (with the drums continuing in 4/4), four of 4/4, and out of tempo pause on F minor, and a final five bars of 4/4."

― everything, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 04:12 (nineteen years ago)

My brane hurts!

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 04:23 (nineteen years ago)

there's loads of examples of lennon doing 5/4 alternating with 4/4 (good morning, good morning), or 3/4 with 4/4 (all you need is love), or where a 2/4 bar is slotted in somewhere. harrison did it too in Here comes the SUn, in the acoustic guitar runs preceding each verse (sounds to me like 3x 3/8 then 1x 4/4). the effect of that weird time sig switching at the end of 'happiness is a warm gun' is genuis at work. the tune is corny, but the words and the metre are deeply disturbing. why does it annoy people? is it because they find it hard to play? Imagine how dull 'All you need is love' would sound if it was in straight 4/4 - no restlessness, no psychedelic undertow, words and music all embracing at the love in. yawn!

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 11:06 (nineteen years ago)

"Give Peace a Chance"

bobomm cha! bobomm cha!

ocasionally becomes

bobomm bobomm cha!

That could be down to the Smothers brothers, Timothy Leary, Allen Ginsberg, Murray the K, Petula Clark and a variety of others, who had more wiggle room in Lennon's songs rather than McCartney's.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 11:17 (nineteen years ago)

Also occurs in "Revolution" and its variants, and in McCartney form, at the fadeout of "Hello Goodbye."

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 11:24 (nineteen years ago)

oh yeah, Harrison also does the 3/4 - 4/4 switch on I Me Mine. As do Magazine on Great Beautician in the Sky. There's alot of it about....

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 12:18 (nineteen years ago)

Pink Floyd on Money too, that's 5/4 then 4/4 for the solo.

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 12:20 (nineteen years ago)

Really? I thought it was in 7/4.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 12:23 (nineteen years ago)

Could it be that some of these songs were actually co-written? With, I dunno, Paul McCartney?

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 12:41 (nineteen years ago)

oh yeah, Harrison also does the 3/4 - 4/4 switch on I Me Mine

Yeah, but I think that 4/4 chorus was largely Paul's contribution to George's 3/4 song.

x-post

― phil d. (Phil D.), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 12:45 (nineteen years ago)

*Really? I thought it was in 7/4.*

ooops, i think you're right. So it could be parsed as one of 4 and one of 3, just like All You Need is Love verse

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 12:58 (nineteen years ago)

"all you need is love" is pretty dull as it is...

why is it (seemingly) only the beatles that bring out this sort of muso formal analysis? i'd like to see similarly rigorous analyses of, i dunno, hank ballard singles.

― amateurist0, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

I think oops was working on that.

― Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 14:38 (nineteen years ago)

We didn't get Hank Ballard in Britain, England. We had Frank Ifield and Val Doonican instead.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 14:55 (nineteen years ago)

Who were strictly 3/4 or 4/4 guys.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

Paddy McGinty's Goat, now there's a trick the musicologists missed

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

Shakey, listening the whole Beatles catalog and taking note of all the tempo changes ain't HALF as geeky or pointless a task as the one that I've half-considered undertaking: Listening to the entire Rush catalog & taking note of all the 7/8 bits! (There are DOZENS.) But I haven't bought a new Rush LP in 20+ years, so it'd be nowhere near complete.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 16:41 (nineteen years ago)

Now you could have stopped that post after "Listening to the entire Rush catalog..." ARGH! Monopolisers of our fifth-form common room stereo with Moving bastard Pictures!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

(Myonga this all started because my wife said she couldn't identify who had written which Beatles tune, so she wanted to start at the beginning and hear them all)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 17:21 (nineteen years ago)

sounds like a great way to spend your time to me. don't think there's too many time sig changes from lennon till quite late on though. What's the earliest? i'd wager 'She said she said' on revolver.

― dr x o'skeleton, Wednesday, 8 March 2006 17:26 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, the first few album's worth are all pretty straightforward.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 17:38 (nineteen years ago)

I've read that Lennon was notoriously poor on his rhythm skills and didn't count "properly," so you get a measure of 2/4 before going back to the verses of 4/4.

I'm thinking on the songs where McCartney had a greater hand in them, he maybe "cleaned" them up a bit, but on pure Lennon it was one-take, that's it.

― Viz (Viz), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

I really wish he had gotten that sorted out and not left us all with this big mess to deal with.

― Dayglo Redd (Ken L), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 18:42 (nineteen years ago)

Bungalow Bill's a good example of this. I'd say Lennon's more distinguishing feature is his lack of adherence to a given key in a song -- lots of minor/major modulation, weird changes (i.e. Strawberry Fields -- which also has one of those strange inserted 2/4 bars, 'Nothing to get hung about'). My favourite Lennonism is at the end of Everybody's Got Something to Hide... -- that bluesy riff right at the end which is repeated an odd sounding six times...

― Wax Cat (Wax Cat), Wednesday, 8 March 2006 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

"I Call Your Name" is kinda interesting - it's in 4/4 throughout, but introduces a triplet feel during the guitar solo, then back to normal.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Thursday, 9 March 2006 08:47 (nineteen years ago)

It's basically a ska break in there.

"Ticket to Ride" is earlier,I believe.

― mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 9 March 2006 09:29 (nineteen years ago)

It's basically a ska break in there.
Lennon claims to have invented reggae right there, I believe.

― Dayglo Redd (Ken L), Thursday, 9 March 2006 12:29 (nineteen years ago)

Balls, Paul McCartney invented reggae on "Ob-la-di Ob-la-da"

― Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 9 March 2006 12:36 (nineteen years ago)

On which track did the Beatles invent rap?

― semen clotting to paste, Thursday, 9 March 2006 12:43 (nineteen years ago)

I'll ask Geir next time I see him

― Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 9 March 2006 12:46 (nineteen years ago)

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