TS: Chris Hillman vs John Entwistle

ultimate sideman (makes stills look good)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlNT5w7Mjmo

lol, joe lala looks like eugene levy in that manassas clip

Dude on the timbales is no Tito Puente.

This is even a question? Entwistle, as Townshend recently put it, "changed the fucking instrument!" Don't get me wrong, I love Hillman/Byrds/Burritos, but it's like comparing Paul Desmond to Albert Ayler: Desmond was a very nice player, but Ayler was life-alteringly stunning.

otm, the Ox was from another planet.

How did he change the instrument? He's a bit like Keith Moon in that he was so distinctive and downright weird that there wasn't much point in trying to sound like him.

Chris Hillman's bass playing in the Byrds was pretty great but I don't think he did much bass playing of note after that. But, a good singer and songwriter and the Flying Burrito Brothers wouldn't have been half as good without him.

I'm an amateur, but I think what he meant was that he was one of the first of the British style "lead bass" guys, later picked up by players from diverse styles such as Chris Squire and Steve Harris.

Yes, I can see that. John Entwistle vs. Jack Bruce might have made a good thread!

That's a good point, these two guys are kinda too far apart for this to be a good competition.

Bruce v. Entwistle could be a bloodbath. Focusing on the bass instead of the guitar when listening to Cream makes it so much better.

How did he change the instrument? He's a bit like Keith Moon in that he was so distinctive and downright weird that there wasn't much point in trying to sound like him.

Both Bootsy Collins and Mike Watt have claimed Entwistle as a major influence, so in terms of impact, that's pretty wide-ranging. It wasn't in any specific detail of the sound (well, aside from making it trebly and overdriven, while retaining massive bottom-end) so much as approaching it as a lead bass guitar.

entwistle: better bass player for sure, hillman: greater contributions to the bands he was in, just about perfect "sideman"

I don't know about the last part of that comment. The Who (barely) survived Moon's death, they're toast without the Ox.

This should obviuously be two threads -

1. TS: Best bass player: John Entwhistle vs. Chris Hillman
2. TS: Best contributor of filler material: John Entwhistle vs. Chris Hillmnan

1 = Entwhistle
2 = Hillman

Phil, you gotta listen to Younger than Yesterday again. Nearly all the best songs on that album are Hillman's.

1. Worst speller: PhilK or PhilK

1=Philk

xpost and agreed with pgwp

"Phil, you gotta listen to Younger than Yesterday again. Nearly all the best songs on that album are Hillman's"

I nearly choked on my bacon sandwich when I first read this. You can't mean it, surely? I mean I'm prepared to consider the argument that Hillman is better than he's generally credited to be, but he sure as hell didn't write "Everybody's Been Burned", "Why" or "Renaissance Fair".

And OK, "Entwistle" then Mr. Mgaill.

"Renaissance Fair" is one of the most forgettable tunes on Younger Than Yesterday, second only to "Mind Gardens." "Why" and "Everybody's Been Burned" are classics, but Hillman ultimately dominates the record. He wrote "Have You Seen Her Face," "Time Between," "The Girl ith No Name," and co-wrote "So You Want To Be A Rock 'n' Roll Star." And with those four credits alone he became an architect of cosmic American music, country rock, jangle pop, American indie in general, No Depression, alt-country, etc.,etc., etc. The guy is a major talent.

I love so much Byrds music, but I think their peak is Younger, Notorious, and Sweethearts, and that coincides with Hillman stepping up as G. Clark and Crosby dropped out of the scene. When was the Byrds biggest drop off in output? It wasn't when Clark or Crosby left; it was when Hillamn left after Sweethearts. Don't get me wrong: I dig post-Hillman Byrds, but he was the true anchor of the group, whether he was playing bass, writing songs, or bringing in talent like Gram Parsons. You can even sense this in interviews. The dude is super grounded.

As for Entwistle, I agree with the apples/oranges argument. At the same time, I wouldn't care to find out because I simply can't listen to the Who. I just don't enjoy their musc at all.

What QuantumNoise said.

Tenuous connection between the two: Pete Townshend once played "Christine's Tune" at a 1997 solo show.

well I mean Chris Hillman was a better bassist than Entwistle. the trebly lead-bass thing, sure, but as bass playing it's kind of extraneous, just like Jimmy Garrison sometimes got lost in the furor of Elvin Jones' drumming and Coltrane's sax. Hillman's bass--the choice of notes--really defines those Byrds classix and provides a touch of the uncanny. I find the Who pretty pedestrian after '67. Maybe the Ox did open the door for those bassists like Chris Squire; me, I don't think that's much of an accomplishment, just more rock-band dynamix divorced from musicality and who needs it.

agreed. Hillman at times is seemingly fusing James Jamerson and Indian music.

I think Hillman gave The Notorious Byrd Brothers its spook: I mean, just listen to the outtake "Triad" and you wonder why it sounds like it's taking part in some cathedral of doom and you realize it's Hillman slithering all under the vocal. He's all over this record like that, exemplifying 60s LA dread.

I love so much Byrds music, but I think their peak is Younger, Notorious, and Sweethearts, and that coincides with Hillman stepping up as G. Clark and Crosby dropped out of the scene. When was the Byrds biggest drop off in output? It wasn't when Clark or Crosby left; it was when Hillamn left after Sweethearts. Don't get me wrong: I dig post-Hillman Byrds, but he was the true anchor of the group, whether he was playing bass, writing songs, or bringing in talent like Gram Parsons. You can even sense this in interviews. The dude is super grounded.

OTM.

And the FBB lost it after the S/T third record, after Hillman left, not after Gram.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Xffm1I7kM

Hillman gets extra points for ironing his hair in the Byrds' early days.