Sludge

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So there's

1. Sunn O)))
2. Electric Wizard
3. Sleep
4. Boris.
5. Earth

What other albums or bands should I check out along these lines?

― Lee is Free (Lee is Free), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:48 (nineteen years ago)

Fudge Tunnel.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

Om.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

Corrupted.
Eyehategod.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:58 (nineteen years ago)

why is it you and me like all the same shit!

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 22 May 2006 23:11 (nineteen years ago)

Khanate!

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Monday, 22 May 2006 23:15 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know , shakey. I guess someone somewhere must like the same stuff.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Monday, 22 May 2006 23:16 (nineteen years ago)

Melvins.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Monday, 22 May 2006 23:17 (nineteen years ago)

Burning Witch.
Obsessed.
Saint Vitus.
1st Mastodon album is sludgey.
Hey Colossus.
Marzuraan.
Whitehorse.
Monarch.
Moss.
Old Man Gloom.
TenHornedBeast.
Ocean.
Unearthly Trance.
Warhorse.
Grief.
Esoteric.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Monday, 22 May 2006 23:34 (nineteen years ago)

Torche

― Uncle Tom (Uncle Tom), Monday, 22 May 2006 23:39 (nineteen years ago)

Torche are great. Don't know if they could as sludge. But the previous band FLOOR do.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Monday, 22 May 2006 23:41 (nineteen years ago)

we have one of these doom metal threads like once a month. check the archives

― jäxøñ (jaxon), Monday, 22 May 2006 23:47 (nineteen years ago)

Jesu, Godflesh, Isis, Pelican, the Tide.

― Heath Raymond (Heath Raymond), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 04:30 (nineteen years ago)

Jesu, Godflesh, Isis, Pelican, the Tide.
All great bands.

Since we're not sticking to strictly sludge how about Asva , Nadja, Holy McGrail,Slomo?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 12:11 (nineteen years ago)

Here's another question... for those of you who know me (or at least my dirty dronerock tastes) - would I like Sunn O)))? I've always kinda avoided them because I thought they were NOIZE, but I keep seeing them mentioned in more and more contexts that interest me.

― The Minimal Criminal (kate), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

I wouldn't really call Sunn O))) "sludge" but that's just me

I thought I would really like them, but I didn't, so uh

if you are me, listen to them first before you buy anything

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 12:24 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think so Kate. They're heavy doomy drone. Coming from a metal background.
However if you do like proper heavy stuff then go for it.

You should see them live though. That is serious heavy and intense stuff. Loudest band i've ever seen by a long long way.
The whole club was shaking with the reverberation. Seriously that is the truth. They have about 2 dozen massive amps behind them and you can feel it blow you away while the floor shakes . I stood at the very front and was stupid enough to forget earplugs.
I doubt anyone could walk in a straight line leaving the G2(Glasgow).

Apparently Khanate was the same but I couldn't make it to that.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 12:31 (nineteen years ago)

The new Noxagt album (they now have a baritone guitar player, the viola player is gone sadly) is pretty sludgey. Its now a Bass, Drums and Guitar line up.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 12:38 (nineteen years ago)

I think I put Kate off didn't i?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 12:50 (nineteen years ago)

Torche and Floor are basically the same act - save for the fact that Torche has much better backing musicians around Steve Brooks.

― Uncle Tom (Uncle Tom), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 15:22 (nineteen years ago)

and are poppier. They describe themselves as "stoner pop".
Theres an mp3 off their new album available from the robotic empire site.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 15:33 (nineteen years ago)

oh my god

"stoner pop" is more or less the best idea ever

this music is so good

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 15:38 (nineteen years ago)

Ha ha, Stoner Pop - isn't that like the Dandy Warhols? ;-)

Nah, pfunk, I'm thinking about it. I'll probably bug Frances to play some for me next time I'm round hers.

― The Minimal Criminal (kate), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

man I gotta give pfunk and Uncle Tom some props, this Torche stuff is probably the best thing I've heard in weeks. people I work with lookin' at me all weird as I fist-pump and headbang and shout "hari-kari! missionary! vampires of the night!"

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 15:52 (nineteen years ago)

One of my favourite albums from last year. Rock mags just seem to have missed out on them for some reason.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

WAIT ARE YOU SERIOUS? WHERE IS BLACK SABBATH ON THESE LISTS?

― SQUARECOATS (plsmith), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

I think its a given that everyone knows who Black Sabbath are if they're into Stoner/Doom/Sludge.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 16:27 (nineteen years ago)

pfunk are there any bands you know of that have the same feel (not necessarily the same sound) as Jesu? sort of that noisy-but-mellow-and-introspective-rather-than-angry vibe?

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 16:39 (nineteen years ago)

Birchville Cat Motel (Album 'Chi Vampires'), Nadja and Holy McGrail are what i can think of offhand.

If you want something like Torche then I recommend Major Stars.(they have a new line up with female singer and are different to older stuff which was more instrumental heavy psych/stoner).

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, I've heard of BCM, been meaning to check him (it's one dude, right?) out.

I'll look up the others when I get home. thanks.

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 16:44 (nineteen years ago)

Others, both closer and further from pure sludge:

Glori5
Flapjack
Jucifer
The Impaler
Lanternjack

― js (honestengine), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

Campbell Kneale of BCM has many projects. His heavy drone band is Black Boned Angel and they are very good.

Check out his label Celebrate Psi Phenomenon

and his "metal" label spin off
Battlecruiser

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

ANyone wanting to check out Electric Wizard may be interested in this
http://www.riseaboverecords.com/prodview.asp?prodId=144

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 19:29 (nineteen years ago)

I think a alot of the bands mentioned are more stoner/metal ambient drone stuff. Sludge to me was always more of a lo fi punk/metal/noise attack like the Asbestos Death 7" (pre Sleep). Then there was stuff like Killslug and that was rather sludge.

― QuantumNoise (Justin Farrar), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 19:43 (nineteen years ago)

Goatsnake would fit in then.

I just found out today that SOMA (Stephen O'Malley) directed the Ice Cream For Crow video by Captain Beefheart.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 22:11 (nineteen years ago)

Torche were not slept on! Plenty of people dig that album. Now, Zatokrev, THEY were slept on:

http://www.decibelmagazine.com/reviews/jul2005/zatokrev.aspx

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 23:07 (nineteen years ago)

Unless of course theres another O'Malley out there.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 00:55 (nineteen years ago)

"Stoner pop" could be applied towards much these days. The floor self-titled record is poppier than the torche stuff, and torche will play sets that are 2/3 floor songs.

It's the same band mean gene. anyone here catch them on the road with the sword or mogwai?

― Uncle Tom (Uncle Tom), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 03:02 (nineteen years ago)

For some historical sludge I's recommend the first 2 High Tide albums, the self-titled one and "Sea Shanties". Sounds like Black Sabbath crossed with a psych version of "Red" era King Crimson, even though "Red" didn't come out until several years later. Violinist was Simon House who ended up in Hawkwind. Less metal than everything else on this thread but very sludgy, in as far as it reminds me of a manta ray trapped in an ocean crevice, slowly choking to death on silt. See also : "Zeit" by Tangerine Dream.

Is Keiji Haino sludge?

― Matt #2 (Matt #2), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:06 (nineteen years ago)

Esoteric
Winter

― Siegbran (eofor), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:12 (nineteen years ago)

i don't know, man, first track on high tide's sea shanties is pretty goddamn fucking metal. way more than, say, isis.

― GOD PUNCH TO HAWKWIND (yournullfame), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 08:22 (nineteen years ago)

I said Esoteric.
I did forget Winter though. My bad.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 11:15 (nineteen years ago)

If you want "dirty dronerock" or whatever Jesu are totally worth a punt, they have a pretty unabashed shoegazing thing going on.

(two dozen or so xposts)

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 12:04 (nineteen years ago)

that Teeth of Lions band.

― electro-acoustic lycanthrope (orion), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 12:22 (nineteen years ago)

Air Conditioning.

― electro-acoustic lycanthrope (orion), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 12:23 (nineteen years ago)

The new Jesu is relatively poppy for him so could be a good place for Kate to start.
The album is great and should be checked out though.

x-post
Teeth Of Lions Rule The Divine?
Might as well chuck in Fungal Hex by Stephen O'Malley then.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 12:24 (nineteen years ago)

And for non sludgey drone check out Oren Ambarchi who appeared on Black One by Sunn o)))

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 12:26 (nineteen years ago)

Pharaoh Overlord

― Tripmaker (SDWitzm), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 12:52 (nineteen years ago)

Circle.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 24 May 2006 19:51 (nineteen years ago)

The answer was yes, BTW.

So it's Jesu I'll look out for next.

― harmonic generator, haircuts are for losers (kate), Friday, 2 June 2006 08:41 (nineteen years ago)

Skipping 6 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

High Tide and Marzuraan are both completely under-rated. You seen Marzuraan, Pash? They are Newcastle/Gateshead based and surprisingly restful and sweet live.

― Raw Patrick (Raw Patrick), Friday, 2 June 2006 11:45 (nineteen years ago)

Marzuraan are great!

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Friday, 2 June 2006 12:28 (nineteen years ago)

Heh, for a while I thought you mispelled Mazarin and thought "but they're not drone, they're cute wibbling psychedelic pop."

Anyway, I'll shut up now, and continue to lurk for informational puproses only.

― harmonic generator, haircuts are for losers (kate), Friday, 2 June 2006 12:36 (nineteen years ago)

Deadbird and Rwake.

And I second Ocean.

― Ed Corcoran (ecorcoran), Friday, 2 June 2006 12:37 (nineteen years ago)

Ned, did you like that Ocean cover of The Cure song?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Friday, 2 June 2006 12:40 (nineteen years ago)

Not strictly sludge, but I think that some of MITB's catalogue might be worth a listen... their records make me think of millions of tiny buzzing insects getting stuck in molasses.

― trees (treesessplode), Friday, 2 June 2006 14:23 (nineteen years ago)

Man Is The Bastard? I haven't heard that name for awhile!

― Brooker Buckingham (Brooker B), Friday, 2 June 2006 14:29 (nineteen years ago)

two months pass...

Anything new on the sludge front?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 18:57 (nineteen years ago)

No one mentioned:

Toadliquor
Kilslug
Upsidedown Cross
Drunks With Guns

That is all.

― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 19:41 (nineteen years ago)

what about Mrtyu? I've yet to hear it but from what i 've read about it it should be a winner

― rizzx (Rizz), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 20:11 (nineteen years ago)

Most of the discussion so far seems to be about alternative post-metal rather than hardcore sludge. What exactly are the strict descriptive parameters for 'sludge'? I'm taking an especial interest because the experimental metal genre is one I'm currently taking a serious and active interest in. Also, nobody's mentioned Neurosis yet and they're normally the first to be brought up.

― Scourage (Haberdager), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 20:21 (nineteen years ago)

I got a few Hey Colossus split singles. The one i enjoyed the most was the Woe Colossus which is a collaboration between Hey Colossus and Woe. Side A is a cover of "In A Silent Way" which is basically a sludgey doomy free jazz version. Phil might love it.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 20:30 (nineteen years ago)

what about Mrtyu? I've yet to hear it but from what i 've read about it it should be a winner
I just ordered a 2cd by them in the sale over at ATH.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 20:33 (nineteen years ago)

And the last Black Boned Angel as well.
(Theres a new Black Boned Angel but I haven't seen it yet)

There will be an AsvA album this year too I think.

I might by that Solar Anus comp from Tumult when I can afford it. Heard some tracks and they're really good.
http://www.tumult.net/catalog/solar.html

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 20:35 (nineteen years ago)

When I read "sludge", the type bands that first came to mind were along the lines of Flipper, Melvins, Blight, No Trend, Swans, and of course, Kilslug.

― xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 20:47 (nineteen years ago)

*type OF bands*

― xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 20:48 (nineteen years ago)

what's ATH?

― rizzx (Rizz), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 21:08 (nineteen years ago)

All Thats Heavy
Stonerrock.coms shop.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 21:27 (nineteen years ago)

Shipping is kinda expensive but it's well packaged. I Buy from there regularly.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:06 (nineteen years ago)

The Goslings.

I think there were some cdrs floating around at some point, but their new 'actual' record 'grandeur or hair' is great. nicely melodic. like maybe galaxie 500 with all the meters in the red.

if jesu, then final? i think that would fit into this thread.

stumm.

― pm (p-m), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

'grandeur of hair' rather.

― pm (p-m), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:08 (nineteen years ago)

Grandeur Of Hair is fantastic. The 1st 2 cdrs were reissued on cd. Archive were selling the album before last and thats when Slimm got them to release their next album on his (excellent) label. Which has also just put out a live acoustic Bardo Pond cd. Hopefully mine will arrive later this week.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

yeaaah The Goslings are fabulous. I got Grandeur of Hair last week and it looks great as well. Archive is fantastic

― rizzx (Rizz), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:14 (nineteen years ago)

One of the best labels currently out there. Slimm puts a lot of work into the packaging.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:16 (nineteen years ago)

i still need to pick up a copy of Empty Rubious Red, i also need more money

― rizzx (Rizz), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

Thats a good one. I need to get that one just out by the guitarist from High Rise

NARITA MUNEHIRO “Ether CD” Archive25
With Highrise being basically an in-active band the last few years Narita Munehiro has been keeping his electric guitar skills sharp with gigging around Tokyo in varies duo’s and other small groupings.(As evidenced by the fantastic CD between Narita and drummer Hano on PSF) This archive release documents 2 live sets from Narita recorded in Late 2005 and the summer of 2006 that put on display the recent solo works of the man who the term Psychedelic Speed Freaks was really captured from.

Did you get the 2cd Keiji Haino?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:23 (nineteen years ago)

sounds good. i still need some High Rise albums, as well as Mellow.Out by Mainliner

I bought the Haino one last week, but from some portuguese site, as well as prayer rug excorcism

― rizzx (Rizz), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:30 (nineteen years ago)

and although i like the Haino packaging, I don't like that the discs are in those loose foil thingies.

― rizzx (Rizz), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:32 (nineteen years ago)

Neurosis are headling Roadburn 2007. Blue Cheer are playing it too.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:35 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, that's really awesome. Circle are playing too. We have some good shit happening sometimes in Dutchland

― rizzx (Rizz), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:36 (nineteen years ago)

Somehow I managed to forget to mention Dot(.)in this thread.
Just picked up last month a Hey Colossus/Dot(.) split 12".

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 22:55 (nineteen years ago)

since nobody ever acknowledged my post on the rollin' metal thread, i say again: the elysium/monarch split cd is great. elysium's "side" is 5 minutes, several songs of crusty/grindy; monarch's single track is 58 minutes of trudge. "amplifire death march!"

― GOD PUNCH TO HAWKWIND (yournullfame), Thursday, 24 August 2006 02:59 (nineteen years ago)

Anyone got the new Monarch lp "Speak Of The Sea"?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Thursday, 24 August 2006 12:29 (nineteen years ago)

Pretty impressed with that Hey C/Dot [.] thing, mainly the latter's side (tho Hey C have done a lot of stuff I like). Will probably buy Black Boned Angel's new one sooner or later

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 24 August 2006 13:03 (nineteen years ago)

Anyone got the new Monarch lp "Speak Of The Sea"?

no, buy i'm chomping at the bit. isn't it supposed to come out on cd shortly after the vinyl release?

― GOD PUNCH TO HAWKWIND (yournullfame), Thursday, 24 August 2006 13:22 (nineteen years ago)

No idea. I can't afford either. The new Colour Haze vinyl I ordered is my last purchase for a while. Need to keep the rest for the new Boris lp "Vein".

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Thursday, 24 August 2006 13:26 (nineteen years ago)

I'd forgotten about SLUDGE - I do love it thoguh!!

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Thursday, 24 August 2006 13:35 (nineteen years ago)

monarch trumps boris as far as i'm concerned, it looks like the speak of the sea LP and the next LP might come out as a double cd in early 2007.

― GOD PUNCH TO HAWKWIND (yournullfame), Thursday, 24 August 2006 13:42 (nineteen years ago)

Roadburn 2007
Along with Neurosis are Circle, Pharaoh Overlord, Sun Dial, Causa Sui, Orange Sunshine, Orthodox, The Hidden Hand, Rotor, Volt, Siena Root, Stinking Lizaveta & Colour Haze.

I should post this on the psych thread too I guess.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:07 (nineteen years ago)

Toadliquor...

Toadliquor Toadliquor Toadliquor.

Cause they don't get mentioned enough.

Seriously, Toadliquor.

Maybe I haven't heard the right stuff, but when I hear Neurosis I think "prog-metal".

― Edward III (edward iii), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:27 (nineteen years ago)

A lot of bands don't just belong in one genre though.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Thursday, 24 August 2006 19:09 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, obviously - the point is I haven't heard anything by Neurosis I'd consider sludge so is there a particularly sludgey album by them?

― Edward III (edward iii), Thursday, 24 August 2006 19:44 (nineteen years ago)

There was a CD called the "Complete Solar Anus" in Amoeba today. Almost snagged it, if only for the title. Sixteen bucks was really asking too much, though, for such a novelty.

I know they've been mentioned at ILM off and on.

― Urnst Kouch (Urnst Kouch), Thursday, 24 August 2006 20:25 (nineteen years ago)

The Solar Anus i've heard is great. $16 doesn't seem too much for a double cd.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Thursday, 24 August 2006 20:53 (nineteen years ago)

two years pass...

toadliquor's cover of "also sprach zarathustra" just made me crack up.

― pierre some sugar henry (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Saturday, 6 December 2008 10:33 (sixteen years ago)

fourteen years pass...

Weedeater is pretty great. I've listened to them on occasion for about ten years but going to see them tomorrow and finally got the albums I didn't have. they seem to do well with economic ideas and short song lengths, I do love that the vocals have progressed from full-throated shrieks to late-era Brian Johnson-esque screeches. also love all of the forays into songs with banjo, like "Battered and Fried".

feel like I prefer their first three albums though I do like Goliathan quite a bit. Crosby Stills and Nash "Sign of the Southern Cross" and Skynyrd "Gimme Back My Bullets" covers are great transformations of the tunes.

idk-if yr gonna go doom/sludge, go loud and deafening, and they do.

― waiting for a czar to fall (Neanderthal), Sunday, 26 February 2023 16:25 (two years ago)

I really hate your face
I hate the things you do
I know you don't like me
I'm coming after you

I really hate your face
I hate the things you do
I know you don't like me
I'm gonna bury you

― waiting for a czar to fall (Neanderthal), Sunday, 26 February 2023 16:28 (two years ago)

I remember seeing Weedeater open for Saint Vitus. they were great, they gave of one of the skeeviest, bad news vibes haha, the singer was drinking cough syrup onstage, super heavy and fun

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 26 February 2023 17:32 (two years ago)

I believe at least one member of Weedeater has shot himself in his own foot. They're the real deal.

― InternationalWaters, Monday, 27 February 2023 23:55 (two years ago)

Yeah lol Dixie Dave. With a shotgun

― waiting for a czar to fall (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 28 February 2023 00:44 (two years ago)

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