the crits hated Sabbath and Zep, so…

some people do not like Sab and Zep, just as some folks don't like ice cream or television. the point is that, if there is a consensus, then that consensus is that the crits were wrong about Zep and Sab.

(Making this up, I could be completely wrong)

Do they own a Tool t-shirt?

and to the Mods: I tried to look up a similar thread, but could not find something similar, and i wasn't sure what to search for…

I mean, I suppose they didn't hate them, but they sure didn't realise how important they'd become.

http://robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres71.php

physical graffiti, #25 pazz and jop in 1975:

http://robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres75.php

trans europe express, #30 pazz and jop in 1977:

http://robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres77.php

but yeah, sabbath never finished.

xpost

http://www.dickdestiny.com/blog/dickdestiny.html

It would also make it easier to spot likely-to-be-overlooked modern equivalents, if that's your bag.

In my unscientific recollection the line negative reviewers took on "Like A Rolling Stone", "Cold Sweat", Kraftwerk etc. is "This is very interesting/brave/a bold departure, but not actually good".

So that's the angle futurologists should look out for rather than "This suXoR".

Soo.... uh, Radiohead, then? ;-)

::ducks from ILX beatdown::

Although the critical consensus is more of a shrug than outright condemnation, and I genuinely can't imagine anyone being passionate about them in thirty years time - they'll be remembered as 'that band who did a number of pleasant songs that all sounded the same'.

http://www.creemmagazine.com/BeatGoesOn/BlackSabbath/BringYourMotherPt001.html

I don't know about the US press, but, from the bits and bobs I've read, the 70s UK rock press's take on James Brown was "This stuff all sounds the same/ he can't sing, he just makes funny noises/ where's the tunes?". Also reggae was repetitive and banal and just novelty pop music basically. Geir was born too late.

Actually, I came here to point out that Bangs got it right about Sabbath (and The Stooges... and VU... and "96 Tears"), but he made a career of being right about his unpopular choices, so I'm not sure he can be used as a bellweather of critical acclaim.

I liked your Stooges entry Scott, don't think I saw the Sabbath.

That first record was universally panned, but it's held up remarkably well. Hey Jealousy still sounds better than anything else on the radio.

Also, I hate to say it, but: Dave. Matthews.

Opeth on Damnation album, as 00s Led Zeppelin ?

and it seems very troubling that "they're saying what my black soul feels" is the standard by which every big teen-friendly rock group is judged. whether its rap-metal or emo, its not acceptable to evoke partying and pussy—the kids cannot let go of the idea that Nirvana was "real" and "important," and hair-metal was somehow false.

but I dunno—Kid Rock seemed to make partying and pussy appealing, but maybe the kids think he's played out. And do Fall Out Boy and the commercial emo bands ever sing about having a good time?

Manowar?

they won't talk about Manowar on the VH1 show. sigh.

Totally agree with you here. I'm not saying that hair metal is inferior to nu-metal, or any less serious in and of itself. Shit, Korn and Staind and the woe-is-me crowd just wants the public to think they take themselves more seriously than the Bullet Boys. I do think the Bullet Boys (or even bands that did it well) are probably less likely to passionately inspire people to make or write about music than something that tries to appeal to emotions/experiences beyond physical pleasure. And that inspiration is more likely to lead to future canonization of something we all know completely fuckin' sucks.

Anyway, I've easily exceeded my self-mandated word limit for the day.

The most recent example of this is U2 and I would imagine that Radiohead will receive the same treatment in a few years. Critics will ignore any pretentious and inane mistakes and treat it all as being brilliant and worth reading into.

And if current teenage boy trends get enough steam I would imagine Dream Theater getting acclaim along with Tool.

Ken Tucker - "former rock music critic at the Los Angeles Herald Examiner" - gives one star - "poor: records in which even technical competence is at question, or which are remarkably ill-conceived" - to every Black Sabbath alb from the debut up to Mob Rules (1981) in my revised (1983 blue cover) edition of the NEW Rolling Stone Record Guide 1983 eds. D. Marsh and J Swenson - Review begins "These would-be English Kings of Heavy Metal are eternally foiled by their stupidity and intractability" - it's a gd job, ken, that yr own s + p hasn't held YOU back!

In Christgau's record guide current hip untouchables like Can and John Fahey are relegated to a fairly unenthusiastic/indiff gloss in the back of the bk - so my guess is that some arty but largely ignored - if not actually despised - 'post' rock group/outsider will, in 20 years or so, seem ludicrously left out/marginalised

Somebody please post that godawful Rolling Stone pan of their second album PRONTO.

Moby. And Ween.

> Deftones?

Have the Deftones gotten bad reviews?

More critics bands. (And Moby fucking WON Pazz & Jop, for crissakes.) (Or finished second maybe? Well, one or the other.)

I think Dream Theater are a great nomination, though.

There's already a bit of this going on, with people praising the '94-'96 era of No Limit.

shit 98 was a real good year for this label. balls and my word, life or death, give it to em raw ------- solid classics

In metal circles, this is happening with records like Transilvanian Hunger, Hvis Lyset Tar Oss, In The Nightside Eclipse, None So Vile, The Oath Of Black Blood, Turn Loose The Swans - nowhere to be found in the annual lists of the metal mags at the time (which were filled with the likes of Machine Head, Fear Factory, Soundgarden, Obituary, The Almighty, Grip Inc, Corrosion of Conformity, etc), but they regularly turn op in retrospective best-of-90s lists. Also, deliberately lo-fi acts like Venom, Bathory and Hellhammer certainly had far more detractors in the early 80s than they have now.

Predicting is difficult, although "prole" dance producers are a safe bet. Marc Arcadipane already has his reappraisal, I guess producers with long careers like M.I.K.E., Laurent Veronnez, Tomcraft, Eric Prydz, Angello & Ingrosso, Gabry Ponte, Westbam or Full Intention are bound to get revalued sooner or later?

Gary Numan had one bad album after another between 1984/85-94.

I bet Tupac's rep follows the trajectory of the Doors rather than Zeppelin. He'll be absurdly over-romanticized by a certain group of high school kids (of all ages) and remembered for a few great singles by the rest of us.

In what world is Randy Newman not rock?

Going back to the original question, I think it was age than cleaved the great divide between rock critics and fans. The Marcus/Landau/Christgau generation were generally appalled by the music favored by emerging adolescents at the turn of the 60s/70s. Heavy rock sounded like a crude devolution of psychedelia to the first wave of baby boomers. What hath our counterculture wrought?

Greil Marcus reviewed Costello's first album in Rolling Stone as a double review with Newman's Little Criminals. So the future was here in 1977.

>Toby Keith...puts out great singles<

Not to mention much better albums (and singles) than Tupac. (But then, so did the Doors. The Doors/Tupac analagy sounds right, though.)

Ha, like Stephin Merritt! But I was referring to:
"No one even considers Randy Newman rock any more, do they?"

I think the "no one" is an overstatement, that's all. I'm guessing most under-thirties have only heard his goopy soundtrack stuff anyway, maybe "Short People."

this isn't really true--he had a steady run top 20 singles from 1965-70

had guitarist Steve Hunter, pre-Lou reed and Alice, and Johnny "Bee" Badjanek on the drooms…

http://robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres71.php

The real question is who today is the new "Joy of Cooking"- ranked #6 here, above Joni Mitchell, David Bowie, Sly Stone, Mahavishnu Orchestra, etc, etc...

So (as I look over the P&Js of yore), that'd be Shelby Lynne (2000), Manu Chao (2001), The Roots (2002), Drive-By Truckers (2003), hmmmmm The Arcade Fire maybe? (2004), and M.I.A. (2005), then?

Fantastic record. I love it about as much as I love all of Seger's pre-System singles, which I believe people around here were/are looking for. About three years back, I bought a nicely done CD-R at Rockitscientist (sp?) in NYC that was a compilation of, I believe, all his pre-System singles from '64 to '69.

it's not that it's a daunting job, it's that it goes against the very nature of the medium. doesn't matter which committee of superiors you have to deal with. when you're making tv, you need visuals. and when you're making music television, you need sound too.