American mid-'60s rock groups were more amateurish and naive than English groups

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From the 1979 Rolling Stone Record Guide entry on the original Lenny Kaye Nuggets compilation:

"These are somewhat bluesy, somewhat psychedelic, always amateurish, and for the most part, utterly unself-conscious in their naivete."

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:04 (nineteen years ago)

I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

― Sons Of The Redd Desert (Ken L), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

There are exceptions, of course, but the idea that the Byrds and the Jefferson Airplane were less amateurish and naive than the Music Machine and the Thirteenth Floor Elevators seems ridiculous in retrospect.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:18 (nineteen years ago)

Um, those groups are all American.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:20 (nineteen years ago)

all those bands are American...? or is yr point that there were varying degrees of amateurishness among American bands...? I don't think the initial comment is all that far off the mark, tho "amateurish" and "naive" are not the words I would use (I would probably go with "rawer" or "more ragged" or something).

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:20 (nineteen years ago)

I think Tim's point is that the Byrds and the Jefferson Airplane were not Nuggets, but mainstream acts. But I'm still not sure I follow.

― Sons Of The Redd Desert (Ken L), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:22 (nineteen years ago)

I do think British groups in general tried harder to be more polished, more precise in their execution, etc. (there are exceptions of course) - you can still detect traces of this today when comparing British and American bands - a lot British bands have always struck me more as refiners and craftsmen as opposed to the more unhinged originators common in America.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:25 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah yeah, Byrds/Jefferson Airplane as exceptions. They were less "naive" somehow. The Music Machine and the Remains were, if anything, tighter groups than the Byrds or the Jefferson Airplane, so the "amateurish" tag is ridiculous.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:28 (nineteen years ago)

dood make sense plz

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:29 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, why are you comparing American bands to other American bands?

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:30 (nineteen years ago)

Because, as I said, there are exceptions to the rule. Byrds/Jefferson Airplane were somehow perceived as being more relevant, I guess, and thus less "naive."

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:32 (nineteen years ago)

Here's a theoretical example to the rule itself: Who was more naive, the Mayall Bluesbreakers or the Blues Project?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:33 (nineteen years ago)

but how do they figure into this at all? they are not a) on the Nuggets comps or b) British.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:34 (nineteen years ago)

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:34 (nineteen years ago)

Who was more "naive," Ten Years After or the Amboy Dukes?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:35 (nineteen years ago)

I give up.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:35 (nineteen years ago)

Byrds/Jefferson Airplane as exceptions to the rule, duder. They are not "Nuggets" type bands because they were obviously so much tighter and more relevant.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:37 (nineteen years ago)

I mean do you want to just talk about the different levels of refinement in American rock acts from the 60s, is that it? (If so, why bother with the initial quote, which is only kinda tangentially related to that...?)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:38 (nineteen years ago)

DOOD WHY YOU MENTION ENGLISH GROUPS IN THREAD TITLE

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:40 (nineteen years ago)

I want to talk about the bias in that quote, which I think wants to tell you both that:

A) Americans were rubes if they weren't full-on socially conscious relevance-espousing hippies
B) English people get more of a benefit of the doubt

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:42 (nineteen years ago)

I don't get any of that from that one line you've quoted, but by all means post the entire text.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:45 (nineteen years ago)

That's the only line of the text relevant to the topic. If they are not calling these groups "amateurish" and "naive" in comparison with "relevant" American groups (Byrds, Airplane, et al) or English groups, than who?

Who is more "naive," the Zombies or the Association?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

you are not making a lick of sense.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 26 May 2006 22:53 (nineteen years ago)

Don't you think English groups got more of a benefit of the doubt as to their authenticity, somehow? I've got three comparisons so far:

Mayall Bluesbreakers vs. Blues Project
Ten Years After vs. Amboy Dukes
Zombies vs. Association

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 23:06 (nineteen years ago)

If there was an English freakbeat equivalent of Nuggets that had come out in the seventies, would people have been as likely to characterize it as "always amateurish" and naive?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 23:08 (nineteen years ago)

OTOH, who are the American Led Zeppelins and Black Sabbaths and Pentangles and Whos and Humble Pies, etc.?

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Friday, 26 May 2006 23:15 (nineteen years ago)

Granted, I'm obliviously missing the "mid-60s" in the thread title...

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Friday, 26 May 2006 23:15 (nineteen years ago)

There obviously were none, amirite? I mean, obviously, White Witch were rubes from Florida and nowhere near being in Black Sabbath's league. (x-post)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 23:17 (nineteen years ago)

Tim, your question is interesting but I don't understand why you have to make it seem like everyone who characterised american bands as "amateurish" and "naive" was doing it as a *diss* towards them? Or to establish that they weren't in the brit band's "league"? My guess is most of the purveyors of the american garage rock scene's mystique as having those qualities meant it as a compliment! Primitive, naive groups being better at capturing "the essence of Rock" than those clinical, calculating brits and all that.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 26 May 2006 23:34 (nineteen years ago)

Regardless of how it was intended, I don't think it was accurate. I don't see Nuggets bands as being particularly "naive" or "amateurish," comparitively speaking. And I think the perspective was (is?) partly to do with these bands being American.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 26 May 2006 23:40 (nineteen years ago)

I would now like to discuss French bands like Can.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 26 May 2006 23:59 (nineteen years ago)

Time for someone to post that one picture of Christian Vander.

― Sons Of The Redd Desert (Ken L), Saturday, 27 May 2006 00:03 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, I think krautrock was probably quite underrated by American critics in the seventies for supposedly being amateurish and naive, as well.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 27 May 2006 00:09 (nineteen years ago)

I do think British groups in general tried harder to be more polished, more precise in their execution, etc.

Not compared to American mainstream acts, no.

But the fact that USA is a more populated country than the UK means there was more of a market for "underground" music. Thus, a larger number of badly produced singles by unknown bands being released.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 27 May 2006 00:11 (nineteen years ago)

The Nuggets records are not badly produced, though. I mean, early Beatles records and Shel Talmy records and whatnot, in comparison, certainly weren't super state of the art.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 27 May 2006 00:14 (nineteen years ago)

"Also I turned Doofus onto the Can, another German psychedelic schnozz-ball that has lotsa 17-minute electroraga jams, and he listens to one side of their album one time and sez to me: "Don't you think the Can are better than the Stooges?" See what I mean? When all week he's been asking me things like "Don't you think Amon Duul II are the greatest group in history?"and "Don't you think Dance of the Lemmings (one of their albums, featuring such standards as "Dehypnotized Toothpaste," "Landing in a Ditch" and "A Short Stop at the Transylvanian Brain Surgery") is the greatest album of all time?" and I keep saying no, but he won't take no for an answer"

Haha Lester, Doofus was right. Can were better than the Stooges.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 27 May 2006 00:15 (nineteen years ago)

"He listens to one side of their album one time and sez to me: 'Don't you think the Can are better than the Stooges?'" - Totally otm and classic!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 27 May 2006 01:20 (nineteen years ago)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 27 May 2006 03:44 (nineteen years ago)

Which record is more quaint in a homespun kinda way, "Open My Eyes" by the Nazz or "My White Bicycle" by Tomorrow?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 27 May 2006 04:01 (nineteen years ago)

what is the relationship of quaintness to relevance?

― electro-acoustic lycanthrope (orion), Saturday, 27 May 2006 04:13 (nineteen years ago)

No, relationship of quaintness to naivete.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 27 May 2006 04:14 (nineteen years ago)

(And possibly amateurishness as well.)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 27 May 2006 04:15 (nineteen years ago)

the idea that the Byrds and the Jefferson Airplane were less amateurish and naive than the Music Machine and the Thirteenth Floor Elevators seems ridiculous in retrospect

I take this to mean the Byrds & JA were more professional and sophisticated WRT to dealings w/the record companies, utilization of the recording studio etc. Which isn't to say Crosby wasn't drug-addled or the Airplane didn't get royally screwed by their first manager but that the Music Machine and 13th Floor Elevators remained three steps closer to the garage in relation to the music biz.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Saturday, 27 May 2006 09:04 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know if that's true of the Music Machine, though. They were on Warners and then Bonniwell did a solo album for Capitol. They just didn't manage to have a hit after "Talk Talk."

If we're talking about the music on Nuggets, I think if one is to say that the Nazz, the Amboy Dukes, the Remains, and the Blues Project were all "amateurish," then really you might as well say that ALL American rock from the period was amateurish. There is no big qualitative gap between the music of these bands and the Byrds/Airplane/etc. (And actually I think that could be extended to other Nuggets bands, too - Chocolate Watchband, who were probably THE BEST Rolling Stones influenced band, Blues Magoos ... you could go on and on ... I mean, sure, "Psychotic Reaction" is a kind of amateurish sounding record, but I don't think it's typical of Nuggets.)

And then the idea that Byrds/Airplane/etc. were less "naive" then these bands because of ... what? That their lyrics were more socially relevant somehow? This seems ridiculous to me in retrospect.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 27 May 2006 14:22 (nineteen years ago)

naivete could have something to do with music machine not having another hit after "talk talk"?? byrds and JA were way more savvy in terms of negotiating the mainstream music biz as it existed then. though i think the airplane's socially relevant lyrics, much celebrated at the time, are the big reason why they're barely remembered the way many less-popular-at-the-time cult heros are.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Saturday, 27 May 2006 14:34 (nineteen years ago)

Seeds, Electric Prunes, 13th Floor Elevators and Music Machine seem like the kinds of bands that were mined by the bigger acts.

― But I wasn't there, Saturday, 27 May 2006 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

they were all dumb and naive, everybody knows LSD makes you STOOPID

― how about this, Sunday, 28 May 2006 18:17 (nineteen years ago)

the byrds and airplane were both a bit OLDER than most of the nuggets bands, no? okay, maybe not by much. but someone like mcguinn was a seasoned pro by the time the byrds got started. this was definitely not the case with bands like the shadows of knight and other garage acts barely out of their teens.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 28 May 2006 20:07 (nineteen years ago)

Sxy Saxon and Sean Bonniwell were just as seasoned.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 28 May 2006 20:31 (nineteen years ago)

Plus you've got Standells/Vagrants/Blues Project/Remains/Amboy Dukes/etc., etc. on that album. Who were older, the Chocolate Watchband or the Buffalo Springfield? I have no idea.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 28 May 2006 20:39 (nineteen years ago)

seven years pass...

This thread!...Shakey's utter bafflement and Tim's absolute refusal to clarify still make me lol all these years later

― Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Wednesday, 31 July 2013 06:16 (twelve years ago)

Glad to be of service

― joe schmoladoo from 7-11 (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 July 2013 06:39 (twelve years ago)

The claim in the thread title is incredibly stupid, but I don't get where Tim got the "English" part from. I mean it's dumb enough to say that the nuggets bands were "always amateurish" but the quote doesn't seem to be comparing them to english bands at all.

― wk, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 06:46 (twelve years ago)

I'll grant that there's stuff on the nuggets comp that isn't at all amateurish (the nazz, amboy dukes, etc)

― joe schmoladoo from 7-11 (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 July 2013 06:53 (twelve years ago)

Some of them are even studio projects put together by pro songwriters and session players! Like Sagittarius, The Third Rail, and The Magicians.

The Amboy Dukes seem like one of the more amateurish bands on there to me. Shitty singer, generic cover song, on a small label, etc.

― wk, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 07:50 (twelve years ago)

An enjoyable thread - I have something equally asinine in the naive line:

Who is the most naive Godz or The Shaggs? Is not the quality of being naive essential to the reputation of these groups? Is Twee twy hard naive? What to believe? Is this a dream?

― Hinklepicker, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 08:31 (twelve years ago)

Louie Louie vs. You Really Got Me?

― Dr X O'Skeleton, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 12:15 (twelve years ago)

Can't get much more amateurish and naive than the early Kinks!

― Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Wednesday, 31 July 2013 12:22 (twelve years ago)

i think i wrote the entry for nuggets in the last rolling stone book. i seem to recall that i did. i don't know where my book is. i don't remember who i called naive or amateurish. i'm sure there was hyperbole involved though.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 13:16 (twelve years ago)

my entry would have included the u.k. nuggets box too.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 13:16 (twelve years ago)

The Amboy Dukes seem like one of the more amateurish bands on there to me. Shitty singer, generic cover

the dukes song on the original comp is not a cover

― joe schmoladoo from 7-11 (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 July 2013 17:53 (twelve years ago)

Baby Please Don't Go?

― wk, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 18:17 (twelve years ago)

Hmmm i appear to have been thinking nuggets volume 1 ("the hits"), which has Journey to the center of your mind on it

― joe schmoladoo from 7-11 (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 July 2013 18:22 (twelve years ago)

Never mind! Their version of baby please dont go is def nothing special

― joe schmoladoo from 7-11 (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 July 2013 18:23 (twelve years ago)

Ah, I see. confusing

― wk, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 18:23 (twelve years ago)

I guess in the wake of all of the Back From the Grave comps and stuff like that, it's hard for me to think of any of the Nuggets songs as amateurish, especially since many of them were on major labels, recorded at top studios, and were even radio hits. I guess they seemed amateurish in retrospect by the standards of 1979.

Some of the bands like the Seeds or Music Machine were kind of quirky and somewhat uncommercial, but they were pretty damn tight as players, and everything about the way they approached their "act" and their career seems completely professional. Nuggets seems to be more about bands that were aiming to be huge but just failed rather than bands stuck in a small town who recorded one 45 almost as a joke when they were in high school with no expectations of anything beyond giving away copies to friends.

― wk, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 18:32 (twelve years ago)

They're like regional rap hits imo

― joe schmoladoo from 7-11 (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 July 2013 18:36 (twelve years ago)

woah reading the top of this thread made me feel like a teenager who smoked a joint at lunch and went back to algebra class

― brio, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 19:00 (twelve years ago)

Jefferson Airplane were naive and completely fucking gullible.

― how's life, Wednesday, 31 July 2013 19:16 (twelve years ago)

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