Suspiciously

Abba would almost be the negative litmus test for me. I don't usually trust someone's taste in music if he/she likes Abba. But if I think about what you and Tom like it is not that easy really. Some of what you like I like too, some I don't. In any case my test band would be Velvet Underground. Do you like them, Dr.C?

my litmus test is euphoria (ninos dream), but then y'all knew that, right?

I'll start with the reverse: Radiohead.

If I find out someone doesn't like say, Cecil Taylor then I get suspicious.

I only trust deaf people when it comes to music.

actually no, scratch that. i've changed my mind. gots to be Bob James. easytime smoooooth, pimpin in 78 cadillac, pale blue suit, facial hair (but not much), on the way to my pad, man, ready to fuck some chicks (but i don't swear in front of em' dude, i got too much class). life is good. cigars'n'cocaine, mmm, pretty ladieees. no, i don't have a pad, you misheard, that shit be absurd. i live on a boat, like quincy. MD. that lifestyle is niiiice. have you seen bobs jumpers? he gets away with that? you got to give it out for that. so, what? the question, yeh, look, if you're not down with BOB, then you need to get some relaxation classes, and soon...

so, my litmus test is Bob now, ok, because i just know that everythings gonna be just fine, well have some good times, what oil crisis?

did i ever tell you how much i love you all. you know what, those candy ravers, they know whats up. PLUR!

Following a clash with a certified fucking fool in a Wanstead pub in December, I think The Pogues are the acid test, either that or 90s big beat, the gimp in question rates both v v v highly.

I think what's being said isn't - "If they don't like ABBA then they have sucky tastes" but "If they don't like ABBA then any crossover between their tastes and mine is coincidental and if they said I would like something I couldn't trust them". In that sense my litmus test is the same as Dr C's, and if anyone says that a whole broad genre is bad I feel the same way.

I'm more interested in how somebody talks about music than whether or not their p.o.v. aligns with mine, at this point anyway. The criticism I've been most interested in lately (mostly here) presumes knowledge of and affection for stuff that I don't know or like.

but I'm generally interested in hearing about stuff that people LIKE that I don't like or know. Much more interesting than hearing what people DON'T LIKE about stuff that I do like. People don't know as much about things they don't like than they do about stuff they do like, naturally.

Yeah, I'm more interested in that too. But for instance - and no offence Nitsuh - if Nitsuh said, Tom you would really like this record, I would think hmmm OK well maybe. Whereas if Tim in Sydney says, Tom you would really like this record, I would think ace, better hear it. Both of these people I think are excellent and very interesting writers about music and influence me in a general sense, but in that specific sense of telling me what I might like, the pop- friendliness of Tim wins out.

I distrust people who say things like, "I never got what the big deal was about the Beatles." Actually, there's someone I work with who dislikes the Beatles, seems to dislike most R&B, dislikes most Latin music, etc. We loan CDs and tapes to each other. Occasionally we agree on something. We both like middle eastern music, but rarely do we give the same recordings the same grades.

I understand the question...but I'll only go so far with the followup, mentally speaking. There are tons of people I know who have generally great taste in music, and we love tons of the same bands. Problem is, we end up disagreeing at the album level, and it comes down to "HOW CAN YOU LIKE THAT ALBUM BEST?" which when it comes down to it is really just splitting hairs. Because of this, I rarely ever wholeheartedly embrace anyone's recommendations just because it came from that person. Everyone has a lapse when compared to your own personal taste, which as I've said before elsewhere on the board, is what makes things interesting, and why we're even able to discuss music like this. (If you made me choose, though, I'd either say The Replacements or Husker Du, but dammit, that would rule out tons of people whose musical taste I respect.)

I used to have ridiculously stupid litmus tests in this regard - stupid, stupid, stupid. Now, it isn't so much what they don't like as WHY they don't like it. I'll listen to anyone that's persuasive & convincing. Also, reasons FOR liking something are pretty important, too. For me. In determining what they're recommending to me.

Ergo, people willing to keep an open mind, admit their shortcomings, walk the talk = gold mines. Folks towing the line, making more noise than necessary = quarries. People that do both in various fields = zoinks!

My test is if they like music from every genre, I can trust them. Or also I could use two bands from opposite sides like Merzbow and Steps: If they like both of them that's a good sign. And also if they don't something because it's famous/unfamous I can't trust them.

I would be more interested in HOW a person listens to music rather than what they currently like/dislike.

Haha, Dave, who did you used to use?

you can't tell anything about a person's musical tastes based upon their musical tastes, i am convinced. case in point: in the new york times yesterday, barry manilow said his favorite albums are by the basement jaxx, underworld, and groove armada. what?

Alex said *In any case my test band would be Velvet Underground. Do you like them, Dr.C?*

Well, yes I do, but they're pretty useless as a litmus test. I mean what's left to say about them? (Same goes for Joy Div really). If someone came up and said 'my favourite band is the Velvet Underground, I'd be keen to find out what else they liked too. If they said 'My favourite bands are the Velvet Underground and The Fall, much as I like/love both artists I'd jump to the conclusion that they probably had a fairly *standard* take on things, informed by the canon(s). If they said 'The Velvet Undergound and The Doors' I'd run a mile. If they said 'The Velvet Underground and The Bee Gees', I'd be intrigued, and want to know more.

Tom said : **I think what's being said isn't - "If they don't like ABBA then they have sucky tastes" but "If they don't like ABBA then any crossover between their tastes and mine is coincidental and if they said I would like something I couldn't trust them"**

Yes to the first part. Liking Abba isn't compulsory. But if someone said that the reason WHY they didn't like Abba was along the standard lines of 'they're commercial pop crap' I'd KNOW that the WHOLE WAY that we approach music is different and I'd be unlikely to trust anything they recommended. If they demolished Abba but then made a case for Hot Chocolate or Soul to Soul or ELO or Sade or Timbaland I'd want to to talk all night.

I have a friend, AJB, whose take on music is quite different to mine - in the late I jumped on the punk/post-punk bandwagon while he kept it at arms length, preferring chart pop in the main. While I was listening to PIL and The Pop Group he was enjoying The Korgis, The Bee Gees and Donna Summer. He's never embraced either indie OR the canon of critic's favourites. While there are few bands that we both like yet he is possibly the person whose IDEAS about music I most respect and agree with. On the other hand I have many, many friends who have been steeped in Factory Records/VU/The Doors/The Fall/The Jam for 20 years, and many of them have never stepped outside of that rather dull, narrow world.

para 5 : I meant in the late SEVENTIES I jumped on....

Like Tom said - some examples from ILM. I suspect that the Pinefox despises much of the music I like, yet his views on songs and songwriters are endlessly fascinating to me, even though songs/songwriters are not so important to me as to him. Likewise Robin Carmody - the Brit Bubblegum piece was very revealing. Also Marcello's writing on Trevor Horn/Dollar. Virtually anything PF/MC/RC write about, I feel compelled to hear.

Dr.C, I took the Velvet Underground as litmus test because almost everybody knows them (as Abba) and I really can't imagine trusting anybody's taste who does not like them. By the way is there anything left to say about Abba? I feel that there is more left to say on the different versions of VU songs (e.g. on the Quine tapes) than on the different versions of Abba songs. Of the alternative music to Abba you mention I like Sade a lot. Great relaxing atmospheric background music. Maybe a better litmus test band would be the "Smiths" but somehow I can understand people who don't like them because of Morrissey's mannerisms.

**Maybe a better litmus test band would be the "Smiths" **

The worst possible litmus test!! I've met too many people for whom *everything* revolves around The Smiths and Morrissey.

**I feel that there is more left to say on the different versions of VU songs (e.g. on the Quine tapes)**

But I suspect that the people who want to say these things are, in the main, people for whom The VU overshadow everything else.

**By the way is there anything left to say about Abba**

It's not so much what there is to say **about ABBA. Rather, it's what you have to say about EVERYTHING/ANYTHING informed by liking say, Abba and The Fall.

Can anyone see what I'm getting at - I fear I'm not making much sense - at least to Alex. Tom - wiv your way wiv words can you help assemble these fragments for me?

Cant have this rubbish. Highbrow reverse mind games be gone! Bollocks to Abba ! "judge not lest ye be judged" VU still a decent yardstick by my book

I don't think there's any mind games going on - and what you're saying Dr C. is entirely comprehensible.

I think it's important though that the context is already a discussion about music: if someone came up to you and said "I love Abba" as an opening gambit there's a good chance they wouldn't then want any kind of in-depth music talk. Whereas if someone came up to you and said "I love the VU" they would almost certainly be up for music talk but you wouldn't be able to tell anything about what else they liked or whether they'd have much to say about it.

In market research terms: among the target universe (="people who want to talk about music"), liking the VU is a very poor predictor variable because there's little differentiation (i.e. 80% of people who want to talk about music like the VU). Liking the Stockholm Monsters is also a poor predictor variable, even if it tells you a lot, because 95% of the target group don't even know who they are. Liking Abba might be a better predictor variable than either.

Re: Liking the Stockholm Monsters is also a poor predictor variable,

Because Tim Hopkins is probably the only the person aged 32 or under that has actually listened to them in the UK !

I would be more interested in HOW a person listens to music
Yeah. Like when they sit with their ass on the boxes and their thumbs in their ears I know I am dealing with a snob who wipes his ass with the Wire magazine and digs Decaer Pinga and Destiny's Child.

The worst possible litmus test!! I've met too many people for whom *everything* revolves around The Smiths and Morrissey.
What you say there, Doc, has nothing to do with your original question. Why shouldn't people's lives revolve around The Smiths (this is true for Abba as well anyways, think about "Muriel's daughter")? This does not disqualify The Smiths as litmus test. I get the impression that the band you are suggesting is absolutely not representative of your taste, Dr. C. Is that true? If yes I can't follow you. Why should a band I accidentally like be a litmus test? That's too clever for me. The Smiths or VU are not my favourite bands either though they don't fall short. But they stand for the kind of music I like. And they are kind of archetypes of that music.

In market research terms: among the target universe (="people who want to talk about music"), liking the VU is a very poor predictor variable because there's little differentiation (i.e. 80% of people who want to talk about music like the VU).
If I remember well you belong to the other 20% don't you, Tom? But ok, I agree. In that case wouldn't it be better to have a battery of litmus tests with at least two bands, if possible from opposite musical directions e.g. Sonic Youth and The Smiths in my case instead of relying on one poor band?

"Muriel's daughter" should have been "Muriel's wedding"

Tom be patient Im a simple man and I cannot follow the logic: firstly I never knew music critics were so scientific, but how can you say in one breath that VU fans would:"almost certainly be up for music talk but you wouldn't be able to tell anything about what else they liked or whether they'd have much to say about it." and then in the next say that "80%of people who WANT TO TALK ABOUT MUSIC like the VU. Why couldnt VU fans talk about what else they liked, what massive bit of the picture am I missing?

"Ive got statistics baby,Ive got facts, these people have been to bed with their parents" L Reed, surely thinking of ABBA fans

Yes, you can't cluster on a single variable! I think Dr C's point is that Sonic Youth and The Smiths are not opposites. So maybe we're talking about triangulation - the key is to ask what's your favourite band and then ask what band furthest away from that do you still love?

This is getting away from Dr C's original point which I still think was clear and well-expressed BUT I think we've hit a flaw anyway. His test kind of assumes that everyone who likes pop likes Abba, whereas in fact this needn't be the case.

(I don't dislike the VU but I don't like them much either, by the way.)

(A simpler way to put this is that anyone who doesn't like Abba is a luny and you should pay them no mind.)

Sorry Kiwi the Market Research stuff was me arsing around.

OK what I meant is that as a single piece of information "I like the Velvet Underground" doesn't tell you very much, i.e. you can't guess anything else from it because almost everyone likes the Velvet Underground. Whereas Dr C is saying that as a single piece of info "I don't like ABBA" tells you something, and he's asking what other single pieces of info tell the people on this board something. So obviously fans of anything could talk about the other stuff they like - but Dr C is after the crucial things people might say which would then make you trust them or not.

For a concrete example: Dave Raposa who posts here a lot loves the Velvet Underground (I think). If liking the VU is your litmus test then you might assume you can trust Dave. BUT on his website recently he just wrote about how much he also loved Abba!

Q: Do you guys really think this much about this stuff when you are talking to people about music? Ohmigod, he just said they didn't like Abba! That's it, I'm going to question him more intently! And if he is an anti-pop guy, I'm not listening to what he has to say about anything and I'm not going to take any of his recommendations and I'm returning his love letters because he is clearly not trustworthy enough to be worthy of my love of music!

Don't get me wrong, I don't take music advice from random strangers and I listen pretty carefully to what even my closest musical compatriots have to say about a band before buying stuff. . . but jeez, this is just conversation and it sounds to me like these conversations end up sounding a little bit like inquisitions (without the comfy chair and the dishrack). . .

I've no idea about Dr C but for me this is all hypothetical. I don't actually talk that much about music.

OK, I guess what's happening on this thread is that we're trying to organise and draw out some kind of subconscious process that happens when we talk about music - and talk about includes read stuff on here. I trust some of you here a lot more than I trust others - why is that? It's got to be based on some opinion or other you've put forward. There's not an actual checklist in the brain!

ok im with you... finally!Thanks

! I think Dr C's point is that Sonic Youth and The Smiths are not opposites

yes! i like both bands but they're hardly dissimilar (try, say, bump'n'flex and michel legrand and now you're talking dude)

ok, so you're saying ABBA right? this, i can agree with. the point being, from Dr Cs perspective, if someone says The Fall, or VU or Joy Division, right, they're in the same framework as Dr C, what they going to say that Dr C don't already know. they can nod in agreement and go "aah, Hip Priest & Kamerads!".

BUT! if they say ABBA (or, presumably Mel & Kim, or Billy May, or Sticky), THEN, "ah, this dudes got a bit more going on, not just the usual roll call shit", they listening to Grotesque through a Fernando lens, mix that shit up a little.

plus, i reckon Dr C views his music as POP, whatever it is, sorry if i'm putting words in your mouth here, but thats how it is for me anyway, i'm listening to whatever, and its POP MUSIC. but someone listening to the Velvets might be like, this is pop, or this is 'REAL MUSIC YA DIG", in which case, interest level - drop off.

With ABBA this ambiguity is gone. you like ABBA, you like POP! case closed

Okay, so speaking generally. Anyone who dismisses more than one whole genre of music while I'm talking to them (i.e. they don't like metal and/or reggae and/or country and/or electronic stuff) is someone who probably doesn't listen to music in the same way I do. People who talk constantly about lyrics (their beauty/importance) are also people I usually have little in common with. I think anyone with a modicum of intelligence who likes Limp Bizkit should be viewed with a great deal of suspicion. I'm not letting that fella chaperone my daughter (not that I have one) to any dances or Woodstock revivals.

Sonic Youth and The Smiths are not opposites Yes they are. Guitar noise/texture and guitar pop/tunes are not the same. Would "Metal Machine Music" and "Automatic for the People" not be opposites neither? This Abba obsession is ridiculous. Why don't you take the Pet Shop Boys instead of Abba? I like them in small quantities.

They're different but not opposites. They're not even opposites in the texture vs tunes sense (eg "How Soon Is Now", "Teenage Riot").

i'm interested in the opinions of people who like dr dre.

I think the Velvets are a much more exciting, interesting, moving and fun POP GROUP than Abba. And so are Destiny's Child.

me too. i think i remember mentioning here once that i set my housemate up once with a girl. me and the other setter-upper were ruminating on the potential and realized that neither of them liked hip hop. "i guess that's fine" we marvelled. "but what does it say about someone that they don't like hip hop??" fo us, this was obv. a Big Deal.

Gareth said ** the point being, from Dr Cs perspective, if someone says The Fall, or VU or Joy Division, right, they're in the same framework as Dr C**

But only if they reveal some more diverse and unexpected passions too. If, when asked what other bands they like, they name a few more Factory bands, The Nightingales maybe, maybe Sonic Youth, The Pixies, it's just so predictable and dull. I'm as bored an frustrated with the indie-rock canon as I am with the classic-rock canon (Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Young).

Alex in SF - yes, point taken. I don't get too intense about music face to face, and often I'll just go with the flow, and not pick people up on why they like/don't like stuff. I do think about these conversations quite a lot though, and this thread is just a distillation of that.

For example, I was talking to a girl in the pub who was a friend of a friend and she said "isn't it great that REAL bands like The Hives and The Strokes are coming back into fashion"? I said "I dunno really, they're not very good" She said " But even if you don't like those particular bands isn't it great that proper guitar bands are coming back" I didn't push it, and the subject changed, but for a few seconds there was a sort of *expected* response from me along the lines of "yeah it's great, maybe it'll be the end of all that synthetic pop crap", that she didn't get. Actually I think someone else butted in and said it instead. But I've always liked synthetic pop crap as WELL as Joydiv/FAll/Jam. I don't see why people have difficulty with it.

I see your point with this. I also don't see (re: Strokes and Hives and White Stripes) why the return of "guitar rock" (not that it ever truly disappeared) is viewed as being automatically better. These bands seem just as contrived and manufactured as the "synth-y" bands that people are using them to denigrate. I get that some folks miss guitars and rocking songs, but making these bands seem like heroes and the new "punk" isn't the answer. It just smacks of desperation.

yeh, dr c, i meant to say 'core framework' rather than just framework.

the fall are synthetic pop crap, thats why i like them

I'm as bored an frustrated with the indie-rock canon as I am with the classic-rock canon
You do not like predictable musical tastes, Dr.C. Is that right? But I feel what you are doing here is constructing a new canon consisting of the classical indie rock acts plus some sweet extras of "synthetic pop crap" like Abba. I find this too construed, too reflective, too forced. I like what I like. And I really don't care about canons. But probably most of the stuff I like comes from the indie corner. I am such a boring git. BTW I don't think a return of guitars is something good per se neither Dr. C. Boards of Canada or Fennesz are so much more interesting than boring retro acts like The Strokes or BRMC.

The argument about the Strokes etc. isn't so much over "What kind of music is good?" but over "What kind of pop [i.e. public music] shall we have?"

I have no litmus test. Julio's fondness for Cecil Taylor makes it impossible for me.

Alex in M said **You do not like predictable musical tastes, Dr.C. Is that right?**

Not so much 'do not like' as 'can't understand'. I can't understand why people often plough down such a narrow furrow, when there is SO MUCH good music available - virtually everything ever made is re- issued now + all the good NEW stuff. It's not that such people aren't interested *enough* in music or don't have time - they'll spend forever hunting down that rare VU bootleg.

**But I feel what you are doing here is constructing a new canon consisting of the classical indie rock acts plus some sweet extras of "synthetic pop crap" like Abba**

NO! But I am struggling to find a way to explain to you how that is precisely what I'm not doing. I'll think it thru some more.

Not so much 'do not like' as 'can't understand'. I can't understand why people often plough down such a narrow furrow, when there is SO MUCH good music available
Because people usually don't *want* to. Music is for most people not so important. They don't need a change. And hell what is predictable taste for you, may seem to them as eclectic. Personally I don't much care what people listen to, more what they have to say about it. Unless they drop Radiohead in the conversation. Then I am usually already slamming the door behind me before they can say "Ok Com...". ;-)

The idea that guitar rock is going to come storming back and vanquish pop (an image that has ugly "the south will rise again" connotations to me) is silly, but I don't think people really believe that anymore than they believe rock and roll died when Buddy Holly's plane crashed.

The eternal war between pop and rock is just for show - it is a pro wrestling match between marketing strategies disguised as ideas. Relax and enjoy the show.

I don't understand how Radiohead is a good indicator. Most Radiohead fans seem to enjoy music of different stripes, and their albums fit nicely in many good collections. Most everyone I know enjoys at least one Radiohead album/song, whether it be a "pop" or "experimental" tune.

Everyone's taste is predictable. 'Unpredictability' = the new 'predictability'. Idea that we should all be wildly 'unpredictable' = dud cos too full of holes.

exactly pinefox, but i still have sympathy for the idea that another person can shed new light, make me think differently, have a different perspective. liking 6 things the same is fine, but i can guess the 7th for myself. liking 6 different things? the point where intersection occurs: fascinating

IanAtBrown: i was talking to a girl last night about the bands that are coming to our school's spring weekend, and i was like, "i'm glad they got the roots," and she's like, "me too, i love the roots, what else did we get" and i was like, "um, it's like the get up kids" and she was like "the get up kids rock!"
ethANP2 3: there you go dude
ethANP2 3: the roots are like the hiphop tool
ethANP2 3: they're the best thing some people like and the worst thing other people like

I find the whole predictability thing a wee bit silly to be honest. I mean, I'd guess that to someone like Dr C (and I don't mean any offence by this at all) or many other people here I have pretty ordinary and predictable taste, yes I do like Joy Division etc. BUT away from this board and any indie/alternative/whatever clique I have the weirdest most fucked up taste by the standards of my Chadwell 'eef associates.

A bit of clarity in the mess that is this thread "the point where intersection occurs: fascinating" enough said how do you write in italics/bold insert pics?

Kiwi, you have to sit slanted, that way it'll turn italic.

well bugger me it works

A guy told me once he dislikes female singers and it made me really sad.

He sounds like an idiot. I would say the same for someone who claimed they didn't like male singers.

Wait a minute, my husband doesn't like male singers. Male trad Irish singers, at least.