Cheesy

It seems generally to be used negatively - if you're anti-cheese (or pro-cheese), you could have a pop at explaining why...

It refers to low quality, kitschy, not authentic. Which is really ironic seeing how authenticity is impossible. It's all relative. Me, I think that Soulwax mix CD is at times cheesy (but in a positive way). WTF do I know; someone will have a better definition no doubt.

I don't know when it started being used, but has it perhaps shifted slightly to become more complimentary, more affectionate than an outright negative? Calling something cheeesy often denotes that it's *unashamed* of its commerciality or unoriginality, which can be seen as positive.

Cheesy basically means its the sort of music that would get played at Student Night. Cheese, ahem, "classics" include Tiffany's "I Think We're Alone Now", and the Bluebells "Build Me Up Buttercup".

As a genre, it's the equivalent to going "Ooooh, oooh, do you remember x cartoon from our youth? Let's talk about that for six hours, rather than do something constructive with our lives".

Like be music critics.

"Cheesy": often used to describe keyboard sounds, esp. analog synths, or electronic percussion. (You hardly ever hear someone say "that was a cheesy-sounding guitar" do you?) Can be used both negatively and positively - in the latter case in a nostalgiac sense, in that the sound evokes an earlier, supposedly more innocent time (late 60s, early 70s, also 80s synth-pop to some extent) when said sounds seemed 'modern' and no-one was ashamed to use them.

So I guess it's a useful term in that at least you know pretty much what to expect (unlike, say, "brilliant" which is a totally redundant adjective in music writing ... unless of course the music literally makes the speakers or headphones glow :-))

When I use the word, I use it to describe things I think are: lame, tired, naff, etc. It's not really tied to a particular style of music.

i hate its pre-emptive defensiveness: it's like i know someone is going to be snarky and prejudiced about this so i will be in advance
jeff's line is more interesting, as i think it relates to a particular kind of keyboard-based orchestration (but there are also "cheesy" orchestras): but it's still defensive
assumption that guitars can't be cheesy in an aesthetic (as opposed to a textural-descriptive) sense = standard-issue technological moral-fetishism (my fingers hovering near the 'r'-word)

When I use it I'm usually describing a certain kind of 80s keyboard sound, kind of tinny, clumsy sounding -- this sound is used in good ways all the time now, but then it was a reflection that technology hadn't caught up.

But I think it usually means "amateurish, obvious, crassly sentimental."

I'm not sure abt amateurish - ppl might say that lots of sixties easy listening albs were 'cheesy' while admitting that they were also v. professionally put together. 'Cheesy' = Oh dear I like this syrupy tosh but am ashamed to admit it (ie it is not part of the approved 'r' canon...)

Ugh! If there are any ex-students of the Uni of Essex here, they too will have learnt to shudder when they hear the words "Cheezy Tunes". It's just horrible.

OK the question as asked was sort of impersonal - do YOU like 'cheesy' music? Why? (Or why not?)

I've always associated "cheese" with the production values present in most music produced in the 1980s. The reliance on synths, the multi- tracked vocals, some disco elements; just the overall sense of PRODUCTION. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't. I think it's this "cheese" that sets me off when listening to, say, Air or Daft Punk. This could also be the residual effect of my hatred towards most "pop" music (which has softened decidedly). (There might be some 80s phobia fueling this, too.)

Then again, I used to think ABBA were "cheesy", and I still do, but they're great in spite of / because of the cheese.

I'm one of the guilty parties, having invoked the word on the 'Regulate' thread. When I use it I'm usually referring to poor aesthetic choices -- i.e. addressing a subject in a way laden with some mix of kitsch, pretense, overbearing sentimentality and/or outdated technology. The consequence is the final product is wrapped in the associations we connect to things that are not authentic. As Nathalie suggests, ultimately it's very difficult to establish any kind of real authenticity, but nonetheless it exists and affects us.

I enjoy some types of cheese, but others I just find to be bad. For instance, I don't find Warren G's articulation of his 'Untouchable Ness meets 90's G-Funk' Regulator style to be amusingly silly, I just find it annoying. Whereas I like Barcelona's cutesy fetish for retro technology ("Paging System Operator"), or the Pharcyde's self- depricating pranks, or Bon Jovi's unabashedly overblown blue-collar 80's ballads like "Living On a Prayer" ("Tommy used to work on the docks/Union's been on strike/He's down on his luck") -- all of which could be considered 'cheesy.' I guess it just depends on the subject.

I've heard lots of people describe guitar sounds as cheesy.

Cheesy = a sincerity that we can't get with = an instinctual withdrawal of the empathy that the song feels like it deserves. Finding something "cheesy" is like falling out of love with someone. All of a sudden you not only aren't forgiving their overearnestness, you're finding it intolerable.

"Cheesy" comes from CheezWhiz, which is a fake cheese-like aerosol product that comes in a can. (People used to say, "That guy is so cheezwhiz" "Your car is total cheezwhiz." - then it got shortened to "cheese" "That guy is such a cheese" - and, maybe concurrently, became "cheesy" "That guy is cheesy." "That organ solo is fuckin' cheesy." ...At least that's how I remember it.) In popular culture, it means fake-> soulless-> superficial-> Not even trying-> stupid -> uncouth -> canned.

Again I point to Dennis DeYoung's version of "Fire". Now that's cheese. I'm telling you, it's worth the dollar.

I associate the roots of "cheesy" with the fake smiles worn by 60s TV performers like on Lawrence Welk's show. Although fake sadness can be cheesy, too, when applied to pure sound, I take it to mean something shrill, suggesting a smile turning to clenched teeth. Before there was synth pop, cheesy meant Farfisa organs. But I guess all that's history now, and cheesy has come to mean anything excessive, be it repulsive or fun. Power chords are cheesy: "Eye of the Tiger".

Dave225 I couldn't agree less. "Cheesy" for me has a specific connotation that the artist or song in question in trying REALLY HARD to be soulful/real/deep, but they're missing by a mile. Hence prog trance is the epitome of cheese, but techno isn't - since techno's not nearly as concerned with sounding soulful/real/deep. This also explains why Tori Amos is cheesier than the Ramones, who are much more soulless/stupid/uncouth/canned.

When you speak of someone trying really hard and failing, I think of Jewel automatically. Jewel is not cheesy though - she's just bad. But I might call someone cheesy for saying that Jewel is their favorite singer. And I'm really on the fence about techno being/not- being cheesy.

I think Daft Punk are the cheesiest band I like. it's a combination of cheap and as if it's aiming for something it will never achieve, but if it's good you don't want it to quite get there. I'm thinking of a word along the lines of "obvious" but without such strong lack of originality connotations.

That's pro and anti, example of good cheesiness Daft Punk, . Example of bad cheesiness-Steps.

Example of bad cheesiness-Steps.
Would Abba be good-cheesy then?

Ugh! If there are any ex-students of the Uni of Essex here, they too will have learnt to shudder when they hear the words "Cheezy Tunes". It's just horrible.

Me! But I was mid 80s Uni of Essex so I must be too old for this cheezy recollection. Was it some sort of student disco evening?

Oh god! I wish I didn't have to describe it. It seems that UoE are totally unshamed to be unable to do nothing but provide knowingly rubbish disco nites on campus. Cheesy Tunes on Friday and "The Big Cheese" in the underground every month or so. Truly abismal. Music ranges from Steps to Britney to The Village People. And the students lap it up as if it's going out of fashion (it never was in fashion). Basically a chance for Breezer Birds and Rugger Buggers to drink tartfuel and Snakebite then sing very badly to camp 80s "classics". Strangely enough, the UoE ents commity never cottoned on to the idea of having a "Good" Tunes nite on campus. Even the so-called Indie night on campus is pitiful... I asked them to play Queens of the Stone Age and the DJ hadn't even heard of them. I went there once and had to endure a total of 9 Limp Bizkit songs within the same 2 hours.

what dog latin says is why i find the word cheese a bit obnoxious: i like britney AND steps AND village ppl obv, but i hate that a disco playing perfectly sensible music for a disco (eg disco) has to lay out its wares in such a defensively deniable way — so what when eg dog latin (who hates it all) turns up and says, "all this music is awful play queens of the stone age", instead of saying (a bit more reasonably) "but no one except you has heard of QotSA, and our disco will totally empty in three seconds flat", they say "oh yes we KNOW it's rubbish what's why we love it so"

if they were rubbish i would not like em; i like em all because i think they're good (actually tbh i'm bored w.village ppl, who wear a bit thin after 25 years as "the totally gay music it's ok to love if you're not gay"); i would not _ to answer tom's revised question — use the word "cheesy" about ANY music i liked (which is a lot of music)

ok, is there a way to join the dots properly between "cheese", "sentimental", "camp", "gay" and "student-y" (like not in that order for example, or in a line at all)?

(actually i realise i dislike it for the same reason i started to dislike "gay" and prefer "queer": "cheese" is nervously trying to be liked too much) (and if i follow that thru i realise e my animus doesn't apply so much to straightforwardly dismissive if not hostile uses, like nicole's or dog latin's)

ok, is there a way to join the dots properly between "cheese", "sentimental", "camp", "gay" and "student-y" (like not in that order for example, or in a line at all)?

TheKindaMzkYouLike.

Relates to 'so bad it's good' kind of thing, I feel. Herb Alpert, James Last, Abba, Village People - all are cheese. which everyone secretly loves, hence derogatory name even if pro-cheese.

The music I see most often described this way is happy hardcore. Personally, I tend to think the term suggests I might like the music but not (if used pejoratively) the reviewer.

TheKindaMzkYouLike.
Oi!

Mark - I didn't ask them to play QotSA at the cheese nite - i asked at the Indie/Rock nite... You've gotta admit that it's not asking much is it?

Mark is on the money.
There is something really horrible about the kind of people who use the word cheesy excessively, and particularly the kind of music that they think is not cheesy...
Cheese definitely implies a reaching for emotionality, and a lot of people, in attempting to demonstrate 'taste' seem to be drawn to music that is utterly emotionally bereft - Stone Roses seem to crop up a lot here.
Personally I'd far rather listen to something that's cheesy in the emotional sense (i.e. that fails) than something which doesn't even try. I think any good music will be cheesy to someone - it's kind of a mark of quality.

cf happy hardcore - when I was 16, Q-Tex's "The Power of Love" used to bring tears to my eyes because despite being ineffably cheesy in execution, it was expressing an emotion and a thought that was incredibly real to a lot of people. I've never found anyone else who reacts to that song in that way, they all think it's cheesy, but I'll still cling to it...

When I read Tracer's version up there I thought it totally covered the money, but not sure now. In my head at least there's a version of cheesy as sth revelling in its obviousness or, the inverse, totally unaware of its obviousness and/or enjoying what it takes to be its charm more (perhaps) than the listener might (this last is close to T HAnd's but substitutes a more generalised sense of 'charm' or 'appeal' for his 'deeply felt'). This is flaky because I'm translating from actors (where I am more likely to apply the word) to music.

Dave225 I couldn't agree less. "Cheesy" for me has a specific "connotation that the artist or song in question in trying REALLY HARD to be soulful/real/deep, but they're missing by a mile. Hence prog trance is the epitome of cheese, but techno isn't - since techno's not nearly as concerned with sounding soulful/ real/deep."

Tracer, have you not listened to anything that MT says?!?

Ellie I hear you saying that cheesiness is that awful thing where actors telegraph their own feelings about their characters to the crowd? like "look how charming this character I'm playing is" or "feel my evilitude, man!" This IS kind of the opposite of the "so earnest you want to punch them" cheesiness I was talking about because the performer here is putting a distance between themselves and the character, by sortof commenting on their character as they're playing them (this usually comes off VERY badly and is the source of most bad comedy and just bad drama full stop I think). With music it might be a performer who's telegraphing EXACTLY how sweet they think they are, or how heartbroken, etc, rather then simply and directly going after the subject of the song. Is this what you're talking about?

MT = Miguel Tejada?

Mark S's big post above: was I the only person who got a MASSIVE DEJA VU experience reading it?

I mean this *LITERALLY*, NOT metaphorically (though as it happens that might be true as well).

Gary Numan = cheese galore. Man I love Gary Numan.

Just listening to him last night. Yow.

yeah, I want army fatigues with a patch that says "TUBEWAY ARMY". he's awesome. but for me he accomplishes exactly what he sets out to, which would fall outside my definition of cheese. it's naked, and emotional, and synthy, and sincere... but maybe he's missing ellie's "charm" or striving for "appeal"... which would make him uncheesy.

been thinking more about this. how about maybe we could say

revelling in obviousness = not ironic = "camp"
unaware of obviousness = much irony i.e. diff between what we clearly see and what they think we think they feel = "cheesy" (though cd eventually become camp if audience makes enough of an effort, i.e. forgiving the performer and acting as if this were their intention (!) all along)

telegraphing what they think we should feel about their song/perf = not giving us any credit = BAD ART

I'd spin from Tracer's tack and argue that we tend to label things "cheesy" when we feel that the material essentially thinks of us as gullible or easily manipulated: at root, "cheese" is that moment where the strings swell as if tears are meant to be running down our faces but nothing leading up to this point has earned the tears in the least. Conversely it's that moment where the power chords crunch as if we're meant to be pumping our fists in the air but we haven't yet been moved anywhere near that point. In this sense I agree with Tracer's earnestness-missing-the-mark assessment, sort of, except I don't think there needs to be earnestness on the other side -- in fact, I think the worst "cheese" comes from sort of workmanlike art in which the makes just assume you're already convinced and involved and no work needs to be done to actually engage you with the character before you'll enjoy the sports-training montage or something.

This is also how one can like cheese, incidentally -- sometimes we really are in the mood to suspend disbelief and cut out the critical-engagement part and just let ourselves swoon over some unearned fantasia of conventions purely for its own sake. We're willing to just grant the "earning" portion because we are, at the moment, primarily interested in enjoying the kick-ass sports-training montage.

"...that moment where the power chords crunch as if we're meant to be pumping our fists in the air but we haven't yet been moved anywhere near that point"

That pritty much describes Adrew WK. Man I hate that guy.

I'd say the second paragraph of my post is what Andrew WK is shooting for.

I agree with Nitsuh. I don't think something has to be earnest to be cheesy. To me, "cheesy" is basically a synonym for "trite" or "hackneyed".

What Nitsuh says sounds right to me, especially what he says about cheesy music feeling "unearned".

But is Andrew WK cheesy, or is he something else? Is it possible to be nihilistic and cheesy at once?

I think I'm with Dave Adspace on this one. I think you can accomplish exactly what you set out to do and still be cheesetastic. Would anyone argue that Cyndi Lauper's "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" isn't Grade A cheese because she WANTED it to be bouncy fluffy pop? I think the intention or earnestness argument misses the mark. There's a lot of overwrought and exceptionally earnest stuff that doesn't necessarily qualify as cheesy (though I like them, New Model Army can be overly earnest, but I wouldn't call them cheesy by any stretch).

For me the definition of cheese is something that we like, despite knowing that it's not particularly GRATE, or very accomplished--I've never though of anything as cheesy when I can't stand it, because then I just think of it as garbage. I think throwing the cheese tag on something goes back to CheezWhiz: we know it's probably bad for us, but man does it ever taste good.

ok but i still don't get it: "girls just wanna" = fantastic, agreed, only i don't see where the "but" comes in...

Maybe there's no "but", mark. I think potentially the cheese aspect lies in our own minds. Like we're jaded or something, or feeling all superior like we're somehow beyond liking fluffy pop because our tastes are supposedly better than that...when maybe we're just reacting to something being happy or sweet?

(ie. "cheese" is probably more your own mental space than anything you can point to about the music itself...everyone seems to have a different definition of what precisely they consider cheese.)

I don't think "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" is cheesy at all! Silly, dumb, irreverent, fluffy, bubblegum... but none of these things are cheesy to me, in fact they're like insurance AGAINST cheese because how can she be caught with her emotional pants down in a song like that? "Time After Time" can verge on cheese tho. I know I sound willfully bone-headed about this. You're right about the intentionality aspect - it doesn't matter what they set out to do. But when you say something's "cheesy" you're distancing yourself a little from what you know it holds dear. To use your food analogy, you're saying you like it (or hate it) despite its unsophisticated attempts to charm you, not because of them (so maybe it does matter what they set out to do? oh Lord) cause then you'd just eat anything vaguely unhealthy that came your way....

back up, back up - easy now: i don't mean that earnest = cheesy. But when earnestness doesn't grab you, for whatever reason, it quickly curdles. Like an afterschool special. Or The English Patient. Or Linkin Park. Which makes earnestness a gamble - fail and you're cheesy - but succeed and you're certainly doing better than AWK, who nevah even tried -

Personally speaking, I've never found anything particularly charming about CheezWhiz...or, say, a McDonald's cheeseburger...but I love them just the same despite knowing that I'm going to pay for it. I don't think we're necessarily arguing different points, Tracer, but that we're actually just on shades of meaning here, now that you've removed intention from the equation.

I stand by my theory w/r/t "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" -- those who call the track "cheesy" are those who are offended that they're expected to be won over by a song assuming from the get-go that you're willing to just smile and have fun with it. Beyond that, its cheesiness is just a function of the period in general -- the early 80s were so fascinating in part because the listening audience of that time gave artists incredible leeway in terms of what they were willing to give their emotions over to.

In this sense the entire concept of "cheese" rests on this assumption that listeners should be sort of arms-crossed critical, and make music earn (or at least justify) their emotional (and analytical) involvement. "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" -- most pop, in fact -- doesn't entirely do that: it skips straight past that to the payoff, which is fantastic if you want to run with it but seems trite and manipulative if you're standing there with your arms crossed asking why you're supposed to care.

Cf Enrique Iglesias's "Hero," which completely doesn't work unless you take it as a given that Enrique's as dramatic and amazing as the song wants him to be. Unfortunately it doesn't really work even if you do make that assumption, but still: it never justifies why you're supposed to care, it just gives you the climax.

But Nitsuh I honestly don't see why anything earns it as you put it - the one-of-us ironic humility of indie rock, the hyper- aggression of hip-hop, the lab-coat-vibe of IDM etc. etc. are all also resting on and trading off certain expectations of listener attitudes. I don't see how a song can 'earn it', in that in my experience once you've crossed those arms in the first place they stay well and truly crossed, unless perhaps what's playing is so front-and-centre in-your-face Intelligent or Progressive that even the sternest listener feels it's safe to unclench.

(Certainly though the emotional manipulation you're describing exists but I don't know if its what 'cheesy' means or if its unique enough to even merit its own adjective. Is intellectual manipulation of the same kind also cheesy? e.g. Momus' lyrics, which make it very obvious that he and they are intelligent while actually being intelligent too, in the same way as a big weepy pop ballad makes its emotional cues super-overt at the same time as evoking the actual emotion (in me anyway))

(nihilism ≠ not earnest, at all; the former is the wrong word - i think that maybe AWK is already winking at you a la Jon Spencer - he heads off your crossed arms in advance - which for some reason that i can't quite articulate, SUCKS in this venue; that's not what i want. i say: risk cheese! (ie really using your voice (js and awk have this down tho; only thing going for them perf-wise; maybe cause nice strong voice has become stigmatized to the point that they think it's a wink in and of itself?) ie singing and playing about something you care about i.e. i am going to see the DIRTBOMBS on saturday ie don't be afraid ie CONVINCE ME ie ie aieee)

I tend to think of cheese : music > cliche : literature. That's not it entirely, of course...there's an element of kitsch and a campy "over the top" wink and a nod about it as well. -jeff

So I asked my partner about this, because it's so slippery a term, and she claimed that to her, Dean Martin's "That's Amore" is cheesy (and not just because of the reference to pizza). It leads me to believe that often cheese may be the result when the subject and execution are exceptionally happy and non-ironic. That naked joy is probably something that we just want to distance ourselves from, being the jaded (sub)urban hipsters we like to think we are.

correction: Andrew WK has a horrible voice.

Jeff W
Posted: March 20, 2002 at 8:00:00 PM
"Cheesy": often used to describe keyboard sounds, esp. analog synths, or electronic percussion. (You hardly ever hear someone say "that was a cheesy-sounding guitar" do you?)

Well that has changed but…Are modular synths dadrock enough to be cheesy again?