Taking Sides: Lou Reed or John Cale

Okay, how about Lou because, if we're talking Pop, name three Lou Reed songs then three John Cale songs...

But I'm a Cale man. He never made a pop album (not that Transformer's much cop) but he did make a run of mad and meaty records, and for me he could also write lovelier songs than anything Lou managed: there's a sentimental streak as well as a brutal one in Cale's songwriting, which I find very appealing.

I'm sure Reed's the more 'influential' or the better 'rock star' or whatever, but I couldn't give a tinker's cuss about things like that.

but lou, for berlin

That said, Cale isn't on the brilliant third VU album, but it's probably Sterling Morrison who keeps that on course.

Right.

Lou Reed - 41 records listed. John Cale - 34 records listed.

Cale wins.

Or named an album "Coney Island Baby", for that matter.

On the songs-about-domesticity front (cf NYLPM today), Cale's "Sylvia Says" is beautiful.

Observation - nobody is calling Lou Reed "Reed" and nobody is calling John Cale "John".

Velvet Underground (3rd Album) Loaded VU Live 1969 Berlin Transformer

Much as I admire John Cale he's worked with Brian Eno far more than can be good for anyone.

And, as ever, feel free to start any thread you like.

Lou wins. Not for Berlin, or Coney Island Baby (which I swear by...), but for his role in Blue In The Face.

Lou wins. Not for Berlin, or Coney Island Baby (which I swear by...), but for his role in Blue In The Face.

Lou's Views.

My first I Love Music post. Sorry if it's crabby.

Nice to have you commenting, though, Rob!

Besides, the Velvets are great, but everyone knows that they're as overrated as cocaine, and their legacy is overbalanced by that faithful slew of young people "experimenting" with two chords and interminable repetition because it's too much effort to ape Brian Wilson or Burt Bacharach instead (I'm sure that if all those idiots had listened to Can instead, things would be better). Not to mention the popularisation of being "blank"/looking empty-headed, the rock uniform, a suspicion on the part of many hardcore VU types that playing anything quickly makes you some sort of bastard...

Similarly, the Warhol/Factory scene - I was very into that stuff at 13, 14, as a lot of people are, but ultimately I kind of grew out of it. As one ages, one realises that much of the fascination was really about the extreme emphasis put on the forbidden things that suburban 14 year olds crave: sex, drugs and nocturnal freedom in the city. Eventually you realise that 1. precious few people you ever meet will ever even consider having sex with you, much less some kind of hip rooftop orgy, 2. the only drugs you'll ever be able to afford get kind of boring after a while, and 3. when you go out at night in a city, most people you meet are wankers, and young, drugged-up, self- obsessed cliquey people like Andy Warhol's mates are invariably the biggest wankers of all.

So, yes - John Cale. As we've established, a quick skim of the two solo catalogues shows who was responsible for the Velvet Underground's good bits and bad bits, respectively.

Though you have encapsulated why I never want to see London again.

It's significant that I'm so totally bored and utterly disinterested in the VU - to be honest, I *don't give a shit either way about them* - that my only contributions to any threads related to them have been this, and a brief musing about an old 1970s Play For Today.

A strange record, 'Berlin'. I've never been able to work out how sincere he was being. It just sounds too histrionic to be taken seriously.

So, Cale...

I am very happy to have read this.

i like both of them. but lou is more my kind of guy. cale somehow isn't visceral enough.

i've always liked cale better myself. those three-four albums he did for island are great: "fear," "slow dazzle," "helen of troy" (the last a bit weaker), and the compilation "guts." "paris 1919" is a minor classic. "honi soit" was halfway good. i can't think of anything he's done since then that was really good, but cale always struck me as essentially smarter than reed and with a better pop sense and sense of humor. basically, they both suck now and while i hardly think the velvets are overrated like some of my more muso friends, they're really not something i go back to any more, not even "loaded." i still get a kick out of "run run run" though.

Reed is most winning when he's writing throwaways, not Important Statements. I'll take "I Love You, Suzanne" and "Foggy Notion" over, say, "Men of Good Fortune" or "Power & the Glory." That's why "New York' and "Magic & Loss" are his most overrated records. It's entertaining when on the superior first side of "New York" Lou garbles whatever he saw on the 6:30 news and turns it into catchy guitar-pop (when the songs are whizzing by so fast it's good that you're not listening too hard). It's NOT entertaining when an absence of melody forces him to croak some not especially enlightening observations about death and decay on "Magic & Loss."

Lou's best when the absurd courts the vulgar in unexpected ways, as on "Kill Your Sons," "Underneath the Bottle, "Turn to Me," or the marvelous "Mad" from "Ecstacy."

all I know is, I listen to John Cale more than I do Lou Reed, and always have. I like pop music. Lou Reed is all about being Lou Reed, that's great, but I don't get any formal satisfaction out of most of it ("New Sensations" being a big exception). That's what I'm looking for, not the cult-of-personality shit that Lou Reed's been peddling for years.

As for the cult of personality...I understand, but Neil Young and Bob Dylan are guilty of the same crime, if it is a crime.

last minute arguments:

oops I meant to post that on the poll thread

I wish to give my thanks, about locking the other thread. I wanted to write Ned in the midst of that thread, but I realized I didn't probably have his email anymore. I thought he would prolly be sympathetic to my cause. Thanks for locking the other thread.

I adore John Cale.

Won't change my vote yet, iatee, though. But I realize this is a close race. Don't give up on me, I might convert to Cale someday.

Velvet Undergound

"Its my Barbara Streisand song" - Lou Reed

Le Bataclan '72

don't even get me started on Nico

I understand the long and personal struggle you must be going through Bimble. Just understand that I'm here to support you.

thanks iatee!

alright last post from me today

I love John Cale. Okay? I really do.
But when Lou gets it right, he really gets it right.
He's the blood in my soul.

But on a good sunny day if you play me Cale's
"Empty Bottles" I might change my mind.

Sometimes Lou Reed is the only reason to live. I mean you understand me, right?

Mmm. NO.

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gitpics/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/25155513/JOHN-CALE-PLUS-GUESTS-A3-01.jpeg

Interesting line-up.

this is a terrible thread

but this was a great performance. He did it again later without a drummer, after slagging drummers and other musicians in general. Only a crazy man would sack a band this good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeFYJdW3xDg