How old do you have to be? AICON inspired.

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed

I know AICON is a joke, but it made me think of some good questions:

When does it happen that you understand "cool" means nothing apart from "I like that" or "I identify with that right now"? There are so many cool coolios associated with music that are at complete odds with each other, mocking each others' subcultures, etc. that I can't help finding it amusing. Music seems to be a good polarizing device. You're either "with it" or you suck. I think I realized it for *real* my freshman year at college and began wearing normal hair and clothes again. Still, it seems others are always riding the wave of hipsterness to ripe old ages and snickering at the rest of the nerds. How do we stop this? What is one logical sentence that could make any urbanite wannabe rapstar, indie rocker, glam rock, punk rock, hippie or raver chick shrivel up and die from embarrassment?

(This would be a throwback to my hostile-yet-joking first posts on this site. I hope you understand I am not referring to any of YOU people. Take no offense and don't get "all up in my grill, aight?!")

, Tuesday, 3 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Here is my post again, not so annoyingly formatted (I hope): I know AICON is a joke, but it made me think of some good questions: When does it happen that you understand "cool" means nothing apart from "I like that" or "I identify with that right now"? There are so many cool coolios associated with music that are at complete odds with each other, mocking each others' subcultures, etc. that I can't help finding it amusing. Music seems to be a good polarizing device. You're either "with it" or you suck. I think I realized it for *real* my freshman year at college and began wearing normal hair and clothes again. Still, it seems others are always riding the wave of hipsterness to ripe old ages and snickering at the rest of the nerds. How do we stop this? What is one logical sentence that could make any urbanite wannabe rapstar, indie rocker, glam rock, punk rock, hippie or raver chick shrivel up and die from embarrassment?

(This would be a throwback to my hostile-yet-joking first posts on this site. I hope you understand I am not referring to any of YOU people. Take no offense and don't get "all up in my grill, aight?!")

, Tuesday, 3 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

repost of above-sick of scrolling over, no answer.

I know AICON is a joke, but it made me think of some good questions: When does it happen that you understand "cool" means nothing apart from "I like that" or "I identify with that right now"? There are so many cool coolios associated with music that are at complete odds with each other, mocking each others' subcultures, etc. that I can't help finding it amusing. Music seems to be a good polarizing device. You're either "with it" or you suck. I think I realized it for *real* my freshman year at college and began wearing normal hair and clothes again. Still, it seems others are always riding the wave of hipsterness to ripe old ages and snickering at the rest of the nerds. How do we stop this? What is one logical sentence that could make any urbanite wannabe rapstar, indie rocker, glam rock, punk rock, hippie or raver chick shrivel up and die from embarrassment?

(This would be a throwback to my hostile-yet-joking first posts on this site. I hope you understand I am not referring to any of YOU people. Take no offense and don't get "sall up in my grill, taight?!")

Kevin Enas, Tuesday, 3 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

The key to the phrase that would make such a person shrivel up and die is that it would have to be something that wouldn't want to make them beat the living snot out of you. We're not out to make enemies here!

, Tuesday, 3 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

If you're looking for "one sentence that will make any urbanite rapper, indie rocker, glam, punk, hippie or raver chick die from embarassment", how are you any different from the snickering scenesters?

When I wear outlandish clothes, it's because I want to. Nothing more, nothing less. AICON is a joke, and a bad one at that; discrimination based on appearance has killed millions of people.

Inukko, Tuesday, 3 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

And yes, I realize that you weren't referring to anyone in particular. I just took umbrage with the general topic.

Inukko, Tuesday, 3 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I'm saying as a DEFENSE, not an attack, which would actually make me less judgemental. Get me? Something a little more thoughtful than, "Oh, well I'm sorry I can't be all cool like you". That doesn't really work.

, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

AICON isn't entirely a joke.

I am extremely uncool. For all I know there are plenty of people who haven't wanted to hang out with me because of this. But they've not made that known to me so I've not been able to come up with a stinging anti-hipster riposte. So I'm wondering under what circumstances would this killer phrase be said?

Tom, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Tom, maybe you are so uncool you are cool...its all a load of bollocks at the end of the day, anyway.

Michael Bourke, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I too like to think I'm so uncool that I'm cool. You wouldn't want to see *anyone* looking as dishevelled as me, let's just say.

Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Tom, there's 2 instances an intelligent, stinging comment would work well. First type: I hang out with 2 guys from work that are all about hip hop. Normally, I wouldn't seek out a hip hop crowd because I have little in common, but they are nice guys for the most part, I work with them, live close, etc. It just irks me that they say silly shit to the effect that I'm less cool than them, like I'm a tight ass white guy because I don't dress or act all hip hop. They'll make the nerdy white guy voice. Second type: I was in Virgin last weekend with my girlfriend, her sister and her boyfriend, waiting in line and this not-even-that-flashy-but-apparantly-thinks- she's-real-chic girl in front of us turned and slowly looked my girlfriend from head to toe, then looked at her sister from head to toe with this obnoxious smirk of "I'm better than you" on her face. They just started laughing because it was so 15-year-oldish. Then, as she walked past us later, she REALLY had a one-side-of- her-face smirk and affected this total STRUT. All I could think of was, "Oh, hello, Foxy Lady" but I think that just fed her ego, since I don't think she's smart enough to understand sarcasm. Anyway, that's it. I was just hoping for a tactful, nonthreatening comment that would make someone actually THINK about being so judgemental.

, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I can't think of some snappy one-liner right now, but I have been so tempted to steer conversation with the local metallers round to an analysis of what a 'trendy' is. They don't seem to understand that they follow trends just like the 'trendies', just different ones. No harm in that per se, its just that they think they're so damn good for not liking garage! GAH! By the way, I also happen to think that AICON is quite amusing as it shows up all the music-related stereotypes floating around. I don't think there's much harm in it, despite what Inukko says.

DG, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

This happens in both directions. So-called 'normal' people give me shit about my appearence all the time. It's not a result of the 'scene' you're in, it has to do with whether that person is an insecure vicious-minded creep who wants to give someone a hard time. There is nothing you can say that doesn't pander into their hands. The only reaction I've ever found that works is to give them an incredulous look and sneer/laugh back. It's the only language they understand.

I also disagree with Aicon but it's slightly improved for not being anonymous anymore. If you're going to put shit on someone at least you should take responsibility for your comments and own up to being an asshole.

Audrey, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I know Tom already said this - but AICON isn't 100% a joke. I view it as a social experiment, actually. The contrast between how jackoff people were being pre-Nadine and post-Nadine is intriguing. And I also think, despite my own irritations towards AICON, that it's a bit of an overstatement to jump from snarky in-jokes on AICON to "killing millions". Though it's funny.

ANYHOW, can I just point out that if you're being fed your "snappy comeback" by other people it is no longer either snappy, clever or cool? In fact, you'll probably fumble the line and say it wrong and look like an idiot. Much better off to just laugh at the person - though I am a bit curious as to why someone would just offhandedly dismiss basically the entire population as "too cool for the room".

Ally, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

What if 'cool' were the closest thing we have in the modern age to what used to be called 'honour'? What if Victorian duels, chivalric courtships and samurai protectorates were motivated by the 'cool' of the day? What if 'cool' were just a word for the way we encode our ethical and aesthetic visions of how life should be? Would you still want to dismiss it, make its adherents 'shrivel'? Would you want a cut- off point? Would you still be evangelising on behalf of 'normal styles'? And aren't those just rather less considered, rather more accommodated versions of yesterday's cool anyway?

Momus, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I never said AICON was *harmful* - it's just in really poor taste, and related, however indirectly, to things that *are* harmful, like TLC's "No Scrubs" is related to racism and classism. I'm just calling it like I see it.

Inukko, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Oh, and Momus is definitely cool.

Inukko, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Momus has a point. AICON should now install duels involving the ridiculers and the ridiculees, in order to fight for the coolness. That would be so awesome, I'd never stop watching it.

Ally, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Momus, what's this childish differentiation between normal and cool? All people who think they are cool are merely normal people. How are they not, since there is no real "cool"? They can do whatever they want. All I was saying is it's pretty stupid to look down your nose at someone who's not your definition of cool. And, Momus, if you didn't notice, "normal" people think they are cool and cool people are dorks who crave attention. That would make the norm honorable or whatever. I certainly feel honor in being less fake that coolios. Think about it.

, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Okay, I'm hijacking this thread.

Innuko, I can understand using "No Scrubs" as an example of class discrimination. Where does the racism angle come in?

Dan Perry, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Not quite sure what you mean, Nick. I don't believe in the set-up of a specific stylistic metier for everyone to live up to, and I dislike sneering at those you consider "strange" *from whichever perceptive you sneer*. However I don't think there should be any stylistic sacred cows.

Put it this way, I wouldn't consider myself to be cool, but I'd hate to think I'm ever anything less than fresh.

Robin Carmody, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

"Cool" as socially defined norm I find alternately frustrating and fun. Irritating to deal with (and be judged by) but fun to play with and observe. Cool as personal quality -- I aspire to that. As in "keeping your cool" as in constructing a confidence and ease in persona. Cool, bearing these two implications, would probably be better seperated into "Hip" and "Savvy". Thus all ft frequenters probably are fairly savvy. But how many are hip?

Sterling Clover, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Does the answer to Sterling's question involve some kind of Zen riddle? Do you cease to be 'hip' once you think that you are, e.g the girl at Virgin in neuromancer's post? Or is that just cos you're not truly 'hip' - if you are, then you can be it and be aware of it at the same time?

Can the hip/savvy distinction be reduced to just hip? Cos invariably there will be something the savviest person is unsavvy about. Or is taste innate and fundamental?

youn, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Savvy = critically conscious; i.e. individual. Hip = by other's standards; i.e. social

Sterling Clover, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I don't quite get Neuromancer's last response... I thought Momus's point was that nobody is "normal", we all have our own standards of cool?

Anyway, No Scrubs is linked to racism because, if white girls were to say the same thing, they would be branded "gold diggers"... But a black girl says it, & she's "empowered". As for my earlier, more cynical remarks, remember that I'm from the US, and there, posturing and "fronting" is closely linked to violence. Gang violence, at least.

Damn, I'm depressing... I'll stop now.

Inukko, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I'm sorry. where in "No Scrubs" does it suggest that the reason TLC want a non-Scrub is so they can live off all his money? Which is what gold-digging is. The song is shamelessly materialist and I don't neccessarily like that aspect, but come on, TLC are not poor women needing to hitch a ride on some rich guy's wallet.

Tom, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

your reasoning that 'if white women said it, it would be bad but when black women say it, it's okay', and your relation of 'fronting' to gang violence smacks of soft kkk propaganda. please stop. if something is racist because it could be said by members of another race and percieved differently, then many more things are racist than just 'no scrubs', and to single it our is some odd reasoning. i don't like where you're going with this, which i think is going to be that tlc are pursuing 'white' (rich) guys instead of 'black' (poor) guys, which actually would be racist. of you.

ethan padgett, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

For that matter, I wouldn't read "no scrubs" as classist either. I mean.. the whole point is that they want to date as equals, which means that they don't want to date freeloaders. Not that they're looking for the man with the bling bling. On the other hand, "Bills, Bills, Bills" by DC is overtly golddigging, but then so was Patsy Cline's "I Love You, Honey" and so of course was Madonna's "Material Girl". & Of course if you want to talk about race & violence, let's not forget Limp Korn et. al, eh?

Sterling Clover, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Yeah, but "Material Girl" is playful about it, and doesn't involve any rationalization, whereas "No Scrubs" goes out of its way to equate having no money with being a freeloader with a disrespectful attitude, which is so *wrong* in so many ways that I don't even know where to begin. Mind you, what with all the male performers characterizing ALL women as bitches and golddiggers, I can't blame TLC for wanting to turn the tables a little.

Patrick, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

"Bills, Bills, Bills" is absolutely NOT a gold-digger song! All of the bills they want their man to pay are bills that he ran up on them. He drives her car around town, but won't put gas in it. He uses her cell phone constantly, but won't pay her back for the minutes. He runs up her credit cards, but doesn't pay the bills. Etc. If anything, the song is about circumstances that can turn women into gold-diggers. (Um, okay. I contradicting my point now. I'll shut up.)

Dan Perry, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Uh... excuse me? Where did I equate race with violence?

Inukko, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

My whole point about TLC was that they reinforce the stereotype of black women as shallow and materialist. Argue with that all you like, but don't read any more into it than that.

Inukko, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Maybe I can't contribute, cause I've never participated in AICON, but I'm certainly obsessed with this idea of cool, or rather, obsessed with finding out why people are obsessed with being cool to the exclusion of all else.

I've always thought of genuine "cool" as being like zen. The harder you try, the less likely you are to attain it. Only when you completely relax and become at peace with and one with yourself will you ever be cool. And if you try to hard, there should be large bald monks to hit you upside the head with bamboo sticks.

The terminology is difficult- the hip/savvy dichotomy is cruel, coz before Sterl expounded, I thought it was the other way around.

It seems there are two concepts there. One is being genuinely yourself. The other is conforming to a societal or herdal standard. What if your true self *is* being a sheep?

I don't know. I am obsessed with cool, because I've never been *it* despite all the things I've done and acheived in my life, I have never been able to pull off the superficial aspects neccessary for coolness.

Is there anything you can say to the sheepcool to make them stop? Probably not. Unless everyone else stops, too.

kate the saint, Saturday, 7 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I love how these threads evolve into something unrelated to the original post.

I can't agree that "No Scrubs" is harmful because of rascist assumptions. We're talking about it! That's better than pretending these stereotypes don't exist. So it's already done some good, in my opinion. Maybe we'll all think about it and learn something about our attitudes. It may not have been intended that way, but so what.

I just looked at the song's lyrics online and I can't get with the idea that it's about gold digging at all. Talking about a guy living at home with his Mom, that's not a very attractive choice for a mate, no matter where you're coming from. But even more so when you yourself are a multi-millionaire and run in completely different circles. And not only that, but these fictional guys that don't get no love are always TALKING about all the shit they want, but never actually DOING anything about making money. That's weak, I think we can all agree. It might be different if they were poor and cool with it.

The last thing, though, I don't think it's wrong to assume that different cultures might have different values. It's probably dangerous to make generalizations about how, say, people that live in ghettos in the United States think about money. But no one here thinks twice about making generalizations about how, say, white teenagers think about the world. Is the key to never generalize? That kinds of nips the idea of sociological debate in the bud.

Mark, Saturday, 7 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Only when it's done by non-sociologists talking out of their asses, Mark.

Josh, Saturday, 7 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I agree with Mark, it's not about golddigging (they only mention money once and as a minor issue in comparison to attitude) and it's not racist. They don't refer to men of any race, they just refer to men who cynically take advantage of their girlfriends. And you only have to watch that pillar of hope and justice, Judge Judy, to see how many men take their wives/girlfriends for a ride financially. It's about respect for yourself and for your partner. Can't argue with that...

Audrey, Sunday, 8 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Ok, Josh. Maybe I am talking out of my ass.

I have a habit of biting off more than I can chew (see the Killing Joke thread, with it's 200 answers) but it certainly makes for interesting conversation.

Inukko, Friday, 13 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I never said it didn't. But as far as "sociological discussion" goes I would take anything people have to say in this offhand way with a grain of salt. Any people, not just you.

Josh, Friday, 13 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.