TS - Tenor sax vs. Alto sax, AKA - Does size really matter?

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In this corner we have Lester Young, John Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Dexter Gordon, Pharoah Sanders, Dewey Redman, Ben Webster, Coleman Hawkins etc. etc. etc.

Standing opposite we have Charlie Parker, Ornette Coleman, Jackie McLean, Henry Threadgill, Eric Dolphy, Cannonball Adderly, Maceo Parker, etc. etc. etc.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

And the winner is... Soprano Sax (maybe)

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:15 (nineteen years ago)

Exhibit A: Steve Lacy

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:16 (nineteen years ago)

tenor. i used to play the alto. hate it now.

― electric sound of jim [and why not] (electricsound), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:16 (nineteen years ago)

Exhibit B: John Coltrane ("My Favorite Things")

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:17 (nineteen years ago)

In the alto camp, add John Zorn.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

Man, I love Steve Lacy about as much as anyone, but the talent pool for soprano just doesn't compare.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

Under tenors: Ellery Eskelin, Peter Brotzmann

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

I guess Anthony Braxton should probably go primarily under alto (though he seems to play everything).

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:19 (nineteen years ago)

I mean seriously: Lacy, Coltrane, Shorter...all great. But after that?

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:20 (nineteen years ago)

That's true. I love the sound of soprano sax though.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:20 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe it's just the enduring influence of Coltrane, but I kinda think tenorists are the lead guitarists of the reed world - most likely to just get technical for the sake of it and solo waaaaaay long after anyone has stopped caring.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:26 (nineteen years ago)

The soprano, being a Bb saxophone, has (theoretically) the same pool as tenor sax -- hence Coltrane and Shorter doubling on it. (Braxton's umpteen horns are all Eb -> he plays the unusual sopranino sax, for instance, and I guess Rahsaan's stritch — or manzello? — was just an Eb soprano surrogate, as was Elton Dean's saxello, I think.)

But I'd add Charles Brackeen and Evan Parker to the list of great soprano players. In practice, I guess it is a smaller pool.

(xpost)

― mark 0 (mark 0), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:30 (nineteen years ago)

And Branford Marsalis, and John Tchicai (who has mainly been an alto player, I think).

― mark 0 (mark 0), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:31 (nineteen years ago)

And Joe Farrell, though he was 10x better on tenor.

I'll stop now.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:36 (nineteen years ago)

You think you're all special cause you have, like, KNOWLEDGE and shit.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:42 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.rampantscotland.com/graphics/laurel_stan2.jpg

― mark 0 (mark 0), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:45 (nineteen years ago)

Where is the love 4 the skronk king, bari sax.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 8 September 2006 01:49 (nineteen years ago)

SIZE QUEEN!

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 8 September 2006 01:53 (nineteen years ago)

How many contrabass clarinet players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Both of them.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 8 September 2006 02:05 (nineteen years ago)

Hmmm. Looking at these lists, there's about equal amounts of freeishness and boppery, but alto dominates rnbitude and tenor has more swing.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 8 September 2006 02:10 (nineteen years ago)

The tenor sax didn't really come to the forefront until the '40s, though - I'm pretty sure alto sax wz more popular in the swing era for carrying the melody/solos. Also the classic Blue Note fusion sound tends to be trumpet + tenor in unison, no? (Actually you shouldn't listen to me b/c I don't know much jazz outside of a few songs.)

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 8 September 2006 02:49 (nineteen years ago)

tenor. i used to play the alto. hate it now.

Ditto.

― Post-Rodney (But no one called it that at the time) (R. J. Greene), Friday, 8 September 2006 03:07 (nineteen years ago)

The trombone. Sax is overplayed and overrated.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 8 September 2006 03:07 (nineteen years ago)

The tenor sax didn't really come to the forefront until the '40s, though

I'm a post-WWII person (i.e. from bebop to noise), and I'd say that Coleman Hawkins and Lester Young (both tenors) were two of the guys from the 30's whose soloing had a great influence on bebop saxophone. Clarinet sort of died out with swing, though — I'd guess the average swing orchestra had a combination of clarinets and alto saxes for the higher woodwind parts, and tenors and a baritone for the lower parts.

Also the classic Blue Note fusion sound tends to be trumpet + tenor in unison, no?

I'm not sure how or why, but quintets with a sax/trumpet front line became fairly standard with bebop.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Friday, 8 September 2006 03:26 (nineteen years ago)

Tenor has a better (the best) range of pitches compared to other saxes. Personally, I prefer the endless bottom of the baritone sax but for general purposes the tenor is superior. The low C, Bb skronk well and you still have room for the high G, E.

― earinfections (Nick Twisp), Friday, 8 September 2006 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

Baritone is the most fun to play but bizarrely/apparently not many yiants of yazz favored it.

― a naked Kraken annoying Times Square tourists with an acoustic guitar (nickalici, Friday, 8 September 2006 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

OMG I wish I could find footage on youtube of Angelo from Fishbone playing a BASS SAX solo in "Unyielding Conditioning". WTF youtube.

― a naked Kraken annoying Times Square tourists with an acoustic guitar (nickalici, Friday, 8 September 2006 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

Bari bari baribaribaribari.

It's also the name of my fave deli. Best subs in Chi.

― factcheckr (factcheckr), Friday, 8 September 2006 19:41 (nineteen years ago)

This is really frustrating me, I know I love bari sax the best but can only think of one real awesome dedicated bari player - Hamiet Bluiett (or however it's spelled).

― a naked Kraken annoying Times Square tourists with an acoustic guitar (nickalici, Friday, 8 September 2006 19:54 (nineteen years ago)

I guess SKERIK plays bari a whole bunch, too.

― a naked Kraken annoying Times Square tourists with an acoustic guitar (nickalici, Friday, 8 September 2006 19:55 (nineteen years ago)

There's always Geri Mulligan, I guess.

I like the bari sax in theory, but it often comes off as kind of corny (see Dirty Dozen Brass Band).

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 8 September 2006 20:05 (nineteen years ago)

Gerry Mulligan??

― factcheckr (factcheckr), Friday, 8 September 2006 22:13 (nineteen years ago)

Gerry Mulligan??

ihttp://www.ackermanmusic.co.uk/images/gallery/baritone_sax_player.jpg

― factcheckr (factcheckr), Friday, 8 September 2006 22:15 (nineteen years ago)

Is Lee Konitz gonna give the alto any push if I mention him? I don't think I've seen him mentioned on ILM before.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 8 September 2006 22:23 (nineteen years ago)

You must have never read that stuff about him and Elvis Costello and the birthday cake.

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Friday, 8 September 2006 22:26 (nineteen years ago)

Whenever I hear the words "baritone sax," I think of "Boogie Stop Shuffle" and all the Cops and Robbers theme songs it sounds like.

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Friday, 8 September 2006 22:28 (nineteen years ago)

There's also lots of love for Lee Konitz's Motion out there, Austin.

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Friday, 8 September 2006 22:33 (nineteen years ago)

Haha, whoops.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 8 September 2006 22:38 (nineteen years ago)

The saxist from Morphine plays a bari sax.

― Bob Crain (bobcrain), Friday, 8 September 2006 23:54 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not sure how or why, but quintets with a sax/trumpet front line became fairly standard with bebop.

Dizzy + Bird (though he was an alto)

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Saturday, 9 September 2006 03:28 (nineteen years ago)

I had not seen that Costello/Konitz thread before. Turns out there's been a few Konitz threads!

I'm going to listen to some Konitz right now.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Saturday, 9 September 2006 03:31 (nineteen years ago)

Also, isn't broadly true that tenor=warm fuzzy and mellow whereas alto=cool sharp and edgy? Warmfuzzymellow is almost always an easier sell that coolsharpedgy, especially after sound reproduction improves enough to make it easier to hear the former and less neccesary for the latter sound to be 'natural' and therefore desirable when cutting sides.

Or put another way - did the lp and hifi make alto sax less desireable and tenor more so? Are alto and trumpet closer in tone than tenor and trumpet (Harmon mutes notwithstanding) and thus maybe less distinct as a contrasting pair? Or is generalizing about tone like this pretty much a fools errand, because it's a lot more about the player than the instrument?

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Saturday, 9 September 2006 03:38 (nineteen years ago)

Def soprano. Get one Sidney Bechet!

― ALLAH FROG (Mingus Dew), Saturday, 9 September 2006 04:26 (nineteen years ago)

soprano sax = lazy man's clarinet

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Saturday, 9 September 2006 05:45 (nineteen years ago)

Is Lee Konitz gonna give the alto any push if I mention him? I don't think I've seen him mentioned on ILM before.

-- 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (austin.swinbur...), September 8th, 2006 6:23 PM. (Austin, Still)

oh fucking please.......

lee konitz

(and, after seeing my main just a week ago today [!!] I still fukcing stand by that statement. His Tentet fucking slayed it. unbelievable)

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Saturday, 9 September 2006 06:10 (nineteen years ago)

'Not Thaat Chuck' did have a point though -- I fucking LOVE Johnny Hodges (own the Mosaic set).. and, well, Benny Carter. What can you say: I'm not lying when I say that one of the things I did on my first week-long vacation of the year (last week, which I spent entirely at home, chilling out, reading, drinking, and listening to music) was to do an in-depth analysis of Benny Carter Orchestra's Further Definitions, one of my fave jazz recs of all-time.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Saturday, 9 September 2006 06:15 (nineteen years ago)

oh but my answer is Tenor for sure.

but my favorite reed player of all-time is Ornette so hey

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Saturday, 9 September 2006 06:17 (nineteen years ago)

bari is alive and well, by the way. it's just not sexy *shrug*. there'll never be a new joshua redman of the bari; but sure, there's a cat right here in Chicago who fucking rules and owns that thing. Aaron Getsug.

Of course, anyone who lives in Chicago and is into the jazz scene knows Aaron and what an amazing player he is -- he is a killer on bari and tenor; my larger point is that the instrument is by no means dead, despite the fact that jazz in general does a poor job of promoting its young talent. Wherever you live, maybe go to a club or something? bet you'll find a bari guy who rocks it....

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Saturday, 9 September 2006 06:35 (nineteen years ago)

Everytime I hear Madness' "One step beyound" I am convinced the tenor sax is the winner everytime.

― Rowlando for the kidz (Sam Rowlands), Saturday, 9 September 2006 09:46 (nineteen years ago)

another much-forgotten bari sax player: Stephen "Doc" Kupka - The DOC
http://www.bumpcity.com/images/docyoung.gif
Made his living skronking underneath the other half-dozen Tower of Power horns. He's probably not as significant, by himself, as the others mentioned but he's most valuable to Tower of Power by filling out the lower register in the horn section. Without his bari I'm not sure their horn section would be as powerful or as popular. He makes a really thick horn section. see also: "Squb Cakes" "Social Lubrication"

― earinfections (Nick Twisp), Saturday, 9 September 2006 14:04 (nineteen years ago)

I much prefer alto and barritone to tenor or soprano. For some reason, even good tenor and soprano always sounds a little cheesy to me.

Is this because of the Bb/Eb thing? Does it somehow make alto/barritone and tenor/soprano sound similar?

― Matt Olken (Moodles), Saturday, 9 September 2006 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

I've read that Wayne Shorter switched primarily to soprano in Weather Report as it would cut through the loud electric mix of instruments much better than tenor.

― Earl Nash (earlnash), Saturday, 9 September 2006 16:31 (nineteen years ago)

On the other hand, the bari dude who runs the Friday night Green Mill house band is terrible.

― Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 10 September 2006 01:43 (nineteen years ago)

There's lots of swinging cats out there, but how many can play an alto sax and make it sound like a tenor or even a baritone?

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Sunday, 24 September 2006 00:25 (nineteen years ago)

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