Joy Division: Classic Or Dud?

Gods. As most everyone else did, I'd bet, I came to them through New Order, but thankfully my timing was such that 1) _Substance_ (the JD one) had just come out around the time I got my first CD player and 2) I had learned about the JD/NO connection around that time as well through a quite good article on both of them in _Musician_ in 1988, of all places. So while Ian's voice and the early sound threw me a bit (I mean, you listen to _Brotherhood_ or the NO _Substance_ and then you hear "Warsaw" and it's like, "Huh?"), it didn't take long for me to be quietly enthralled. The rest followed naturally. I still am really * really* jealous of a friend who got to see them in the UK in 1979 on a visit. Lucky bastard.

"Transmission" in particular -- man. That song is a cold blue laser light of power, and I can't put it any other way, really.

CLASSIC CLASSIC CLASSIC. In every imaginable sense of the word. (Although, I will argue that many of the songs are so brilliant in and of themselves that they can be interpreted in alomst any manner imaginable and still be fantastic.)

Wait, I think Tom thinks Joy Division are crap but for a handful of songs. Or maybe that's Fred. Or maybe I made this person up.

but that's the only joy division track i need and i've listened to a lot. they mostly strike me as plodding and entirely uninteresting, largely due to curtis's monotone. i've never "connected" with them, so here's the question: is there anyone here who rates them classic and doesn't relate to the lyrics? or who gets by on them for purely musical reason, i.e. melody and backing music?

I'm normally a big one for lyrics but I think Ian Curtis' were pretty dire - all that Ballard-rip-off stuff and the existential pomp of it all. Salvaged a bit by his voice, which I do like a lot. I don't even think "Atmosphere" has good lyrics. "Love Will Tear Us Apart" has BRILLIANT lyrics which from an artistic p.o.v. is the saddest thing about his death - that it seems like a breakthrough in terms of writing humane but unflinching stuff about relationships. But lyrically, generally, dud.

But the music! Bloody hell - the drive and claustrophobia and dynamics and Martin Hannett's production....it's extraordinary. A lot of it is Hannett and I think it's a shame that AFAIK I'm the first person to mention him in this thread. But that band could motor - "Dead Souls", for example, where the lyrics are pretty much irrelevant next to the huge concrete smack of the music. No, for the music, classic.

I love the sound. I love the feel. I love the way Ian Curtis sings. Simple as that. I don't understand how you can love Atmosphere for its atmosphere but dislike the rest of their songs, which have similar-if-not-better atmosphere.

actually, it seems the qualities i admire in "atmosphere" share similarities with the qualities of the earlier cure tracks that i like, e.g. "all cats are grey," "faith," and "the same deep water as you." all have warm, heavy basslines and occasional shimmering keyboards and thudding drums, beautiful instrumentation clashing with the morosity of the lyrics and singer. make of that what you will!

Perhaps they were conjoined twins, and after the operation everyone involved decided it would be best if one of the little tots were shipped across the ocean, so everyone could get on with their lives and forget about the trauma of the birth. ;-)

Oh, and Joy Division? Classic. But Tanya has had the audacity to steal my Ian Curtis joke from Duel, so she had better watch her step in the future. If I see her, I will be forced to kick her ass and steal her boyfriend.

kris: you might prefer the earlier joy division where curtis used a more expressive vocal style.

IC is gloomy: the band (by then) are anything but gloomy

this only applies to closer and maybe (from memory) "atmosphere" — and of course the jangly OMD-tribute "love will tear us apart", a hugely overrated release that would have been immeasurably improved if Dan Perry had supplied lyrics (cf sexual healing classic or dud)

to me, curtis and the others were growing apart anyway (they were outgrowing HIM — this being an unspoken element in the whatever surrounding his death)

when it first came out, Kumar, percussionist in the band I then played guitar in, who was JD-besotted, explained that it was a great title because it meant two things, depending on how you pronounced it:

closer soft s: i.e. the last LP they would make now Curtis was gone

closer hard s: i.e. closer to what the record they meant to make all along

I saw this new vinyl record yesterday called Warsaw, which would seem to be all early JD recordings. Has anyone heard this ? Is it a for- fanatics-only kind of deal ? I like the early songs on Substance a lot.

ned: i actually got into no via jd. as a rocker, i hated no growing up. i was introduced to jd by a fan of emo and post-rock. i'd been curious for a while because of all the awestruck rock criticism, which often made strange comparisons to the velvet underground, whom i liked. once i heard _closer_ i listened to nothing else for a week. after i got all the jd records i bought the first few no records.

Heard the live version of Transmission off Still where the instrumentation starts to fall off and all you hear is Curtis SCREAMING...

DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE TO THE RADIO.

Damn near gave me nightmares. Classic.

I saw them live 4 times in 1979/80, and the Preston gig album kinda sums it up - you never knew if they were going to be either awful and beset with equipment problems or overwhelmingly great. Frequently they would veer from one extreme to the other, and it was always touch and go whether Ian would make it through the set. I still think this is how live music should be though - LIVE!

There will be more live album releases, but I hope not too many. I've heard rumours of cleaned-up radio broadcasts of the Paris and Amsterdam shows, which have been available as bootlegs for ages. I hope one or both is released, and then let's leave it at that.

If anyone was wondering how good JD could be live, then get this and don't bother with the live half of 'Still'/'Preston'/disc 4 of 'Heart and Soul'.

1)The mawkish, morbid 'Cult of Ian' that emerged following his suicide ('he died for you') was more than a Cobain-like outburst of fan mourning. It was openly encouraged by Factory eg the cover of 'Closer', the Anton Corbijn video for 'Atmosphere' (which even Rob Gretton found dubious), and 'Anthony' Wilson's attempts to position Curits alongside the likes of Hendrix and Jones in the pantheon of dead rock geniuses. All highly questionable ("the flogging of a corpse" Paul Morley).

2) The band flirted with neo-fascism, in style if not substance; 'you all forget Rudolf Hess', the choice of name (and then New Order). Curtis, a complex figure, was very right-wing and, according to his widow, possibly racist. In that light the despair of his lyrics, and longing for 'purity' can emerge in a very different, and sometimes sinister light.

3)They were sonic visionaries however. Sumner listened to Chic, Curtis Kraftwerk and Krautrock. Hooks low-bass rumblings allied to Morris's astonishing drumming created a sound that will endure. They shone like diamonds. As a 16 year old I heard 'Love will tear us apart' on the radio and within weeks had left for Manchester by train with my savings to buy as many Joy Division records I could find/afford. They were a life-changing force and I will always revere them.

Mike - sadly, Stevo is correct - it's not possible to ignore the fact that JD used fascist imagery. Look at the cover of the Ideal for Living EP, the content of No Love Lost, Leaders of Men, They Walked in Line...

Maybe you can USE fascist imagery without BEING a fascist. I'd say they were pretty thoughtless, young and stupid, that's all.

This thread pop up on Usenet every now and then, and to give you the answer first: NO!!! This thread, however, did not start on Usenet or Internet. It started in the british music press more than 15 years ago, and since Joy Division gave very few interviews the rumours were allowed to grow in the press. Here's a few points to clear up things: > The version of "At a later date" that appear on the "Short Circuit" compilation opens with Bernard shouting "You all forgot Rudolf Hess!". At that time Rudolf Hess, 83 years old, had been imprisoned at the Spandau prison in East Berlin for more than 30 years. You don't have to be a nazi to feel sympathy for a sick old man that was heavily guarded by some 100 KGB soldiers. > According to Fernando Lopez-de-Victoria: Bernard (and perhaps Ian in some obscure interview) has noted that they like the regalia and art (?) of the Nazi's, but in no way liked their philosophy. This can be seen in some of their artwork, for example: > Bernard made the design for "An Ideal For Living", it included a drawing of a Hitler-jugend-look-alike drummer boy. But on the same fold-out sleeve there's a famous picture from the Warsaw ghetto during 2WW: A young Jewish boy standing with his hands up in the air being guarded by a nazi storm-trooper. Now, is that good nazi propaganda ? > The name Joy Division was associated with nazism, journalists didn't like it (the same thing happened with New Order). As you can read somewhere else in this FAQ "Joy Division" really has a connection to nazism: It was chosen from a book that describes the horrors in a nazi camp during 2WW, not the prosperous future... "Through the wire-screen the eyes, of those standing outside, looked in at her, as into the cage of some rare creature in a zoo. In the hand of one of the assistants she saw the same instrument which they had, that morning, inserted deep into her body. She shuddered instinctively. No life at all in the House of Dolls. No love lost."

This verse from Cetinsky's "The House Of Dolls" was included on the version of "No love lost" from recording session (2).

The weird thing is that many other punk-bands used much more direct nazi symbolism in their relation with the press, and still got away with it!! Though the press never got to interview Joy Division about this topic they could have checked Joy Division's lyrics. If they had they wouldn't have found a shred of nazi propaganda, on the contrary! Take for example "They walked in line": "All dressed in uniforms so fine, they drank and killed to pass the time. Wearing the shame of all their crimes, with measured steps, they walked in line

They carried pictures of their wives and number tags to prove their lives, and made it through the whole machine with dirty hearts and hands washed clean."

And, to really tear down the nazi rumour: Joy Division have participated in a Rock Against Racism benefit concert (at Kelly's in Manchester 12 October 1978) and an Amnesty International benefit concert (at Eric's in Liverpool 3 May 1979). To summarize: I can't find any evidence that JD has shown any sympathy with fascism/nazism, only the contrary. ++++++

so as not to plagarise.

Sure you can.

i always found this argument dubious. given the number of oppressed political prisoners in the world, why feel special sympathy for a nazi? ic might have made the statement to mean "you all forgot what rudolf hess did as a nazi" or something though.

The funny thing about the liner notes is that the kids next door have formed a ska punk band. They sound awful, but I think they're using a riff from a JD song in one of their songs.

Damning with faint praise here, I think.

I am attached to the idea of Unknown Pleasures and Closer being albums, so the thought of having their tracks simply included on a set like Hear & Soul doesn't quite do it for me.

and "Disorder"

Yeah, transmission is a classic but so are several others

i like joy division because stings cousin is not singing as he ruins it with new order and electronic and the songs he sings for 808 state and the chemical brothers!

i like joy division because stings cousin is not singing as he ruins it with new order and electronic and the songs he sings for 808 state and the chemical brothers!

JD were titanic for me in high school, I was just barely the right age to read the obituary review for Still that came out in Creem

I don't really listen that much these days but when I do I go for the "Warsaw" demos or side 1 of Still, I like knowing that the more produced stuff is waiting there towards the end of my life like an old friend

they are so fucking awesome

I was just the right age, 15, when Curtis died, the time of life when music makes its maximum impact on the brain. Some of my peers were obsessed by JD. I was a moderate obsessive, only listening to Closer every day for about a year. This was an era when there was so much original music coming out that I still feel I am catching up with it all 40 years later. Added to that there was Lennon's death, opening up the Beatles and their 60s peers to us. So much great music all came with the force of a train. But JD still managed to stand out as remarkable.

Not jd but the New Order peel session with "turn the heater on" is truly amazing

You are right, music that stabs you inyouth always holds your soul throughout life

as someone who really likes joy division would it be a good idea to see "peter hook and the light" play the songs of joy division

https://post-punk.com/peter-hook-and-the-light-announce-joy-division-a-celebration-north-american-dates-for-2022/amp/

there are a ton of videos of his performances on youtube if you want to get an idea. his versions are very faithful but his singing isn't the strongest.

I've been to a couple of those shows where Hook does Joy Division and/or New Order songs. They were fun.

Call back to the first response itt:

I've been lucky enough to see certain shows from those now gone, but it's all perspective, sometimes right time right place. My friend ML, visiting the UK in 1979, got to see Joy Division. He retold the story on FB a few hours back, and I'm forever happy he got to see them. pic.twitter.com/pfbV4KJ5AT

— Ned Raggett (@NedRaggett) May 17, 2022

hell yeah. that's so cool. there are bands where you're witnessing something that later strikes you as an amazing moments, and then there are those rare, perfect music/listener moments where it is a perfect match, it is clear and shining and undeniable from the very start. love it

wonderful story

Yes, good story, although I have to say that what I was most taken by was the revelation that OMD (of all people) used to take to the stage dressed like a proto-Polyphonic Spree.

OMD went down some interesting sartorial avenues before settling on their look.

https://www.electricity-club.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/omd-pretend1.png

whoah.

anniversary of Ian's passing btw.

I love how Paul Humphreys transformed from Hawkwind drummer to bank clerk.

Difficult to think of "Peter Hook" and "fun" in the same sentence.

Thought the revive was to do with this... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/may/18/new-order-singer-criticises-ludicrous-nhs-mental-health-waiting-lists

there's this Dutch JD cover band called Joy Division Undercover and they kinda rule IMHO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwmQMekyHJc

That's kinda cool.

This could be an alternate timeline where IC gave up music, moved to Amsterdam to open his bookshop with Annik then decided to play some old songs with a bunch of younger musicians 40-odd years later.

i can not say i hate them and they did not put out much but thank GOD stings cousin bernard did not sing leads on this as he ruined new order and electronic and his guest vocals with 808 state and chemical brothers!

Band lacks JD's feverish pulse, but damn that singer is uncanny.

xp lol... well it is definitely hard to think of him singing most JD material, though "Ceremony" is about my favorite thing ever

i was trying to find among the many New Order threads a recently (i think) pasted grudgingly positive review talking about Barney's lyrics. Where was that?

wow that singer gets freakishly close to the Curtis croon, drummer is nowhere close to Morris tho

Then again, who is close to Morris?

xpost IIRC, there is someone on this board who considers Sumner one of the greatest lyricists of his generation...

Indeed, it all plays out here: bernard sumner?!

Good evening!

thanks ZZ! & AS

ILX
a gateway
our hope

I was listening recently to a NO playlist I put together, and what struck me was that while Ian was miles away the better lyricist (nothing Bernard Sumner has ever written comes close to the lyrics of "Ceremony"), I have a much stronger emotional connection to Sumner.

nothing Bernard Sumner has ever written comes close to the lyrics of "Ceremony"

Though, almost certainly, quite a lot of Ceremony is Sumner's lyrics, or at least his adaptation of what he could make out from the recordings that existed.

"Then again, who is close to Morris?"

there is/was a bay area based JD cover band called Dead Souls and their last drummer killed it. she's now the drummer in my band, I'm happy to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYMxmtrfbmU

I saw a fantastic jd cover band in sf on NYE in like 2003, wonder if it was them…

Someone has turned my dream of seeing The Fonz dance to “Disorder” by Joy Division into a reality.

(IG Credit: soyouthinkyoucangoth) pic.twitter.com/II27pinEbo

— Disastro (@DeadAstroman) July 1, 2022

i. it has terrific rhythmic poise, and.
ii. is pitch-perfect in its invocation of mockable faux innocence, as a mask for actual genuinely (silly but knowingly silly) belief
i like mark s, but like a lot of his posts his reading is--how you say in UK?--too clever by half.

― amateur!!st, Thursday, 16 September 2004 18:38 (seventeen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

i too like mark s and his reading is exactly the right amount of clever (by half)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7IpgFIz9ng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxY3FtlLc-M

That Fonz video is amazing

such passion Fonzzie

this was posted in the 77 albs, very well done!

https://www.reverbnation.com/djrudec/song/19246485-joy-division-vs-doors-break-on

depressing crap

https://pouria.dev/unknown-pleasures

neat but...should've picked a song on the album!

https://bid.omegaauctions.co.uk/auction/lot/lot-470---joy-division---ian-curtis---a-handwritten-letter-november-1979/?lot=50168

*goes back in time*

"I know you three have just been through an incredible tragedy. But many wonderful things are to come for you all."

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/24490660.bassist-joy-division-hopes-visit-ikea-warrington/